13 ms·

A common joke in the home-school community is: "I was worried my kid was missing out on the socialization of public schools, so I beat him up and stole his lunc

by seneca 6y ago

A common joke in the home-school community is: "I was worried my kid was missing out on the socialization of public schools, so I beat him up and stole his lunch money". People have very anachronistic views of home schooling. A generation ago it was fair to believe to was mostly ultra religious people wanting to shelter their children. These days, a large chunk of it is people that have no faith in public schools to educate their children, and people who want to avoid political influences that are creeping into public schools.

primrose 6y ago
Or get involved with drugs.
1124816 6y ago
> People have very anachronistic views of home schooling. Yeah, those people have never set foot in a public school in the bible belt. Separation of church and state my ass.
- surge 6y ago
  Yeah, that's actually a great argument, and no matter what school you're kid is going to be exposed to the personal crackpot values, politics, and theories of any teacher, the more likely a teacher is to share their personal values the more likely they're not something. They often forget their job is purely to deliver content based on the curriculum and there is a boundary there they need to respect. i generally respect teachers, but I don't trust someone who got a 4 year degree and certification to take an underpaying job making less than an average college educated salary, and often requiring a breadwining spouse to live comfortably, to think rationally about something including their value systems. Yes, they may have done it for other reasons, but that's still an indicator of making major life decisions on emotional thinking and further contributes to the issue of underpaid teachers (they're not going to pay you more if there are plenty of teachers willing to work for that salary). I'm dubious and sceptical of the kind of person who reads The Secret, or relates everything in life to Harry Potter, but says all religion is dumb. I've had one teacher tell my sister my mom was awful and was cheating on her taxes in front of the entire class humiliating her because my single mother, didn't get my sister a SS card, which at the time you didn't need until you paid into SS. You don't have to like every parent, but ultimately the child is their responsiblity, the values of a child are up to a parent to pass on. Not the teacher's or the government's role. Outside of something that is actually inflicting harm, and you can hate religion but its not the worst thing in and of itself and bad parents don't need religion to mess a kid up.
  - gorgoiler 6y ago
    I am a teacher. Would you trust me more if you viewed my underpaid work as a charitable donation to the society in which I live? Would you pay 60% marginal tax to see class sizes halved, salaries doubled, but maybe also remove any sense of public duty from the role? (One more: would you like to see complete commercialization of eduction, with real salary competition driving up wages, but with the state rather than the parent picking up the bill. Compare this with college education, where student loan companies pick up the bill — you can see where I’m going with that analogy.)
    - inglor_cz 6y ago
      Not the OP, but I would be happy with teachers earning twice as much IF it went hand to hand with removing the worst teachers from the system. Unions will fight that with tooth and claw. It is my experience that the worst 2-3 per cent of people can ruin entire institutions if left unchecked.
      - vkou 6y ago
        > IF it went hand to hand with removing the worst teachers from the system. How will we decide who is the worst teacher? Peer review? Student review? Ask the parents which teacher's politics they dislike more? I'm not saying it can't be done, but I am saying that it's unlikely to be done right.
        inglor_cz 6y ago
        That is a hard question, yes. There is no universal metric that would tell you that. That said, it is not unique to schooling alone. Bosses around the world have to address this problem as well. IDK how Elon Musk runs his "no assholes policy" in SpaceX, but he seems to be successful. Ofc, maybe his approach isn't scalable, who knows.
        bananaface 6y ago
        Parental review sounds like the perfect way to judge teachers. Parents are the most invested and least affected by nepotism within the institution. They're also way more likely to be concerned about the outcome for the kids. In general though parents should be the ones making decisions about their children. Teachers being judged by arbitrary beurocrats i.e. what we have now sounds obviously worse to me. The whole political argument seems weak to me. I think most parents probably care about academics more than that to begin with, but if political homogeneity is important to a particular parent, why shouldn't that influence their vote?
Cd00d 6y ago
My belief is that public schools are part of the foundation of a community. If you're not part of them you're not invested in improving them. And, I don't mean improving them for your child's specific sake, but overall. And, if you're not, you're not really invested in your community. Private schooling and homeschooling are options that I view as opting for the privilege to be above or separate from the community that I live in. My values prioritized equity, and yours may be different.
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  "you're not really invested in your community." Even if I accept this conclusion without questioning, not being invested in your community is perfectly OK. Some people are not particularly 'communal' by nature, some hold views very different from the local standard etc. Imagine that you are a pacifist in a community that holds militaristic views and they seep into the local school system.
- logicchains 6y ago
  >Private schooling and homeschooling are options that I view as opting for the privilege to be above or separate from the community that I live in I'd wager that you're speaking from the privilege of living in a community where you don't have to worry about your kid being knived, shot or raped at school, otherwise you might have a different opinion. Not everybody has the income to support living in a safe community, and for those who don't, private schools are the only option to ensure their child experiences a reasonable level of safety.
  - nmfisher 6y ago
    > I'd wager that you're speaking from the privilege of living in a community where you don't have to worry about your kid being knived, shot or raped at school, otherwise you might have a different opinion. Not that it makes a huge difference, but I'd wager that, outside the USA, that's almost unheard of in the developed world . I know that doesn't make a lick of difference to an American who is in that situation, but surely it's a reflection of American society and culture, not the concept of public schooling in general.
watwut 6y ago
Then again, people who homeschool do like to paint the schools in worst way possible. They do like to think school is the worsets of the worst, even when it is not.
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  That is called having an opinion. It is not as if people homeschool for shits and giggles. Homeschooling costs a lot of time and energy, it would be easier not to do it.
  - watwut 6y ago
    Yeah and that opinion is heavily motivated and not necessary fair assessment of school nor attempt to fairly asses the school. Whether by wish to feel that you do the right thing or by religion or politics or whatever. The comment I responded to was literally about common joke in home schooling community that is literally that. It is not even opinion, it is exaggeration meant to paint the schools as much worst that they are. The schools have issues with bullying, it does exist. But, very realistically, "the socialization in schools consist of kids beating each other and stealing lunches" is over the top.
    - inglor_cz 6y ago
      It is over the top, but worst experiences tend to overshadow the rest. If someone beats you, odds are you won't forget that humiliation for a long time. Ideally, people should not get beaten in school at all, much like we do not tolerate the same in a regular workplace. Some schools manage to prevent that, good for them. Those that cannot or are unwilling to do so, will end up as bad examples in conversations.
      - TeaDrunk 6y ago
        If we want to use the worst examples as the example to measure schooling by then I think the worst examples of home schooling should really be emphasized here. Wasn’t there a case recently where a white mother of adopted black children took and homeschooled her children after teachers tried to report possible abuse- and then the mother later went and killed her children and then herself? I believe that was the background to a popular image of a black child hugging a cop and looking into the camera with tears in his(the child’s) eyes.

by seneca 6y ago

primrose 6y ago

Or get involved with drugs.

1124816 6y ago

> People have very anachronistic views of home schooling. Yeah, those people have never set foot in a public school in the bible belt. Separation of church and state my ass.

surge 6y ago
Yeah, that's actually a great argument, and no matter what school you're kid is going to be exposed to the personal crackpot values, politics, and theories of any teacher, the more likely a teacher is to share their personal values the more likely they're not something. They often forget their job is purely to deliver content based on the curriculum and there is a boundary there they need to respect. i generally respect teachers, but I don't trust someone who got a 4 year degree and certification to take an underpaying job making less than an average college educated salary, and often requiring a breadwining spouse to live comfortably, to think rationally about something including their value systems. Yes, they may have done it for other reasons, but that's still an indicator of making major life decisions on emotional thinking and further contributes to the issue of underpaid teachers (they're not going to pay you more if there are plenty of teachers willing to work for that salary). I'm dubious and sceptical of the kind of person who reads The Secret, or relates everything in life to Harry Potter, but says all religion is dumb. I've had one teacher tell my sister my mom was awful and was cheating on her taxes in front of the entire class humiliating her because my single mother, didn't get my sister a SS card, which at the time you didn't need until you paid into SS. You don't have to like every parent, but ultimately the child is their responsiblity, the values of a child are up to a parent to pass on. Not the teacher's or the government's role. Outside of something that is actually inflicting harm, and you can hate religion but its not the worst thing in and of itself and bad parents don't need religion to mess a kid up.
- gorgoiler 6y ago
  I am a teacher. Would you trust me more if you viewed my underpaid work as a charitable donation to the society in which I live? Would you pay 60% marginal tax to see class sizes halved, salaries doubled, but maybe also remove any sense of public duty from the role? (One more: would you like to see complete commercialization of eduction, with real salary competition driving up wages, but with the state rather than the parent picking up the bill. Compare this with college education, where student loan companies pick up the bill — you can see where I’m going with that analogy.)
  - inglor_cz 6y ago
    Not the OP, but I would be happy with teachers earning twice as much IF it went hand to hand with removing the worst teachers from the system. Unions will fight that with tooth and claw. It is my experience that the worst 2-3 per cent of people can ruin entire institutions if left unchecked.
    - vkou 6y ago
      > IF it went hand to hand with removing the worst teachers from the system. How will we decide who is the worst teacher? Peer review? Student review? Ask the parents which teacher's politics they dislike more? I'm not saying it can't be done, but I am saying that it's unlikely to be done right.
      - inglor_cz 6y ago
        That is a hard question, yes. There is no universal metric that would tell you that. That said, it is not unique to schooling alone. Bosses around the world have to address this problem as well. IDK how Elon Musk runs his "no assholes policy" in SpaceX, but he seems to be successful. Ofc, maybe his approach isn't scalable, who knows.
      - bananaface 6y ago
        Parental review sounds like the perfect way to judge teachers. Parents are the most invested and least affected by nepotism within the institution. They're also way more likely to be concerned about the outcome for the kids. In general though parents should be the ones making decisions about their children. Teachers being judged by arbitrary beurocrats i.e. what we have now sounds obviously worse to me. The whole political argument seems weak to me. I think most parents probably care about academics more than that to begin with, but if political homogeneity is important to a particular parent, why shouldn't that influence their vote?

Cd00d 6y ago

My belief is that public schools are part of the foundation of a community. If you're not part of them you're not invested in improving them. And, I don't mean improving them for your child's specific sake, but overall. And, if you're not, you're not really invested in your community. Private schooling and homeschooling are options that I view as opting for the privilege to be above or separate from the community that I live in. My values prioritized equity, and yours may be different.

inglor_cz 6y ago
"you're not really invested in your community." Even if I accept this conclusion without questioning, not being invested in your community is perfectly OK. Some people are not particularly 'communal' by nature, some hold views very different from the local standard etc. Imagine that you are a pacifist in a community that holds militaristic views and they seep into the local school system.
logicchains 6y ago
>Private schooling and homeschooling are options that I view as opting for the privilege to be above or separate from the community that I live in I'd wager that you're speaking from the privilege of living in a community where you don't have to worry about your kid being knived, shot or raped at school, otherwise you might have a different opinion. Not everybody has the income to support living in a safe community, and for those who don't, private schools are the only option to ensure their child experiences a reasonable level of safety.
- nmfisher 6y ago
  > I'd wager that you're speaking from the privilege of living in a community where you don't have to worry about your kid being knived, shot or raped at school, otherwise you might have a different opinion. Not that it makes a huge difference, but I'd wager that, outside the USA, that's almost unheard of in the developed world . I know that doesn't make a lick of difference to an American who is in that situation, but surely it's a reflection of American society and culture, not the concept of public schooling in general.

watwut 6y ago

Then again, people who homeschool do like to paint the schools in worst way possible. They do like to think school is the worsets of the worst, even when it is not.

inglor_cz 6y ago
That is called having an opinion. It is not as if people homeschool for shits and giggles. Homeschooling costs a lot of time and energy, it would be easier not to do it.
- watwut 6y ago
  Yeah and that opinion is heavily motivated and not necessary fair assessment of school nor attempt to fairly asses the school. Whether by wish to feel that you do the right thing or by religion or politics or whatever. The comment I responded to was literally about common joke in home schooling community that is literally that. It is not even opinion, it is exaggeration meant to paint the schools as much worst that they are. The schools have issues with bullying, it does exist. But, very realistically, "the socialization in schools consist of kids beating each other and stealing lunches" is over the top.
  - inglor_cz 6y ago
    It is over the top, but worst experiences tend to overshadow the rest. If someone beats you, odds are you won't forget that humiliation for a long time. Ideally, people should not get beaten in school at all, much like we do not tolerate the same in a regular workplace. Some schools manage to prevent that, good for them. Those that cannot or are unwilling to do so, will end up as bad examples in conversations.
    - TeaDrunk 6y ago
      If we want to use the worst examples as the example to measure schooling by then I think the worst examples of home schooling should really be emphasized here. Wasn’t there a case recently where a white mother of adopted black children took and homeschooled her children after teachers tried to report possible abuse- and then the mother later went and killed her children and then herself? I believe that was the background to a popular image of a black child hugging a cop and looking into the camera with tears in his(the child’s) eyes.