12 ms·

School also puts kids at the mercy of other kids who make fun of them or worse beat the shit out of them and break their glasses.

by xwdv 6y ago

surge 6y ago
The one place most people will experience or witness violence at least once in their life is in a school. No one mentions all the people who feel safe at home, but suffer abuse and ostracization or ignored by teachers at school. "Socialization", its like arguing people need food and then giving them dog food. Given most modern school schedules, lack of recess, and lunch breaks being barely enough time to eat, I heard even what socialization does take place is being diminished. School isn't the only and definitely not the best option for socialization. At least in home school, they mostly learn socialization by and with adults, excluding extracurricular activities and co-ops.
- xwdv 6y ago
  Middle school was probably the only really violent time in my life. Several occasions I got the shit beaten thoroughly out of me and I was too scared to tell anyone about it because the fuckers threatened to just show up at my house or bus stop and beat me up even harder. I believed it. I often fantasized about bringing a gun to school and blowing them away, but knew I could never do it. It was fun to think about though as a kid. Don't know whatever happened to those kids, but I hope they're in prison or dead, or just living shitty lives. I doubt they ever got better.
  - surge 6y ago
    For me it was late middle, and first two years of high school. I actually had a guy wait in the hallways for me to pass by to terrorize me for one particular class. Another one I had to deal with on the bus when it got to be too much and I guess the bus driver observed enough of the constant abuse by this other kid that when the fight was over (I won), they didn't turn me in. But I saw fights that were much worse, fights that ended in bleeding, cracked ribs and concussions, thankfully there was hospital across the road. This was in a rural region high school, in the 90s, I can only imagine what its like in places with actual gangs, today, etc. The worse part about it is, you tell the teachers, they do nothing substantial, then you're a snitch. If you do the one thing likely to solve the problem, which is fight back, you're punished, and now the cops are called and you're likely arrested. Some kids eventually snap, and parents wonder why school shootings are a thing.
  - ponker 6y ago
    Don’t look them up. I remember hearing about someone who basically had their life thrown into crisis when they looked up their main bully and found out that he was rich, married to a beautiful woman, had three perfect-seeming children, etc.
    - eeZah7Ux 6y ago
      What on earth is a "perfect-seeming" person?
      - ponker 6y ago
        A kid who is smiling and well behaved in a Facebook photo. Basically, the guy worked at a grocery store, was single, wasn’t an unhappy guy, but always thought karma had caught up to his bully. When he discovered that karma doesn’t exist it sent him into depression and rage.
- primrose 6y ago
  "Public schools are literal prisons for children and the only time many people will ever encounter physical violence in their lives." ~Michael Malice
  - surge 6y ago
    https://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=25919951&bcid=25919951&rssid=25919941&item=http%3a%2f%2fapi.edweek.org%2fv1%2few%2f%3fuuid%3d8805A088-82E5-11E9-B21E-B4F258D98AAA https://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=25919951&bcid=25919951&r... https://nypost.com/2018/01/30/teen-suspended-for-inciting-violence-with-anti-bullying-video/ https://nypost.com/2018/01/30/teen-suspended-for-inciting-vi... https://reason.com/2020/09/07/zoom-nerf-gun-school-cops-kid-isaiah-elliott/ https://reason.com/2020/09/07/zoom-nerf-gun-school-cops-kid-... They treat their students like it.
    - primrose 6y ago
      Give everyone vouchers and education will be 10 times better.
      - natch 6y ago
        That will just splinter society further into divisive religious and other ideological tribes who can’t understand each other or even get along. We have some of this now but vouchers make it worse and drain the budgets of public schools. The money has to come from somewhere and it ends up coming from taxpayers. So then less taxpayer money is available to do actual helpful things.
        primrose 6y ago
        Denmark ties education funds to each student, not the school district. They seem to be doing fine.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        > Denmark ties education funds to each student, not the school district. They seem to be doing fine. Lots of places don't, and are also doing fine. That's because that particular feature is orthogonal to any real issue.
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  I still remember my first fight, it was at school in 2d grade in Seattle. I was a new kid, a jerk jumped me right in class for touching his chair. Luckily it was harmless. I was not bullied after probably because I was not small or completely friendless even though I was shy and quiet. The next time was in 5th grade in Texas (new kid again -- I was the weirdo from Seattle). Also harmless. We didn't even get suspended or put on detention in those days. The next time was in the Army defending someone who was being bullied by a racist. That was scary for me because I was so angry I could have really hurt someone. Luckily, cooler heads intervened. Growing up, I heard stories from cousins that went to public school in the Chicago area. Major fights everyday. Though they managed to stay out of harms way. Back in Seattle, my son got suspended for play fighting in middle school (zero tolerance) but otherwise he made it out without getting into any fights -- it helped that he was/is very tall and a popular athlete. Onetime when I picked him up after a dance there was a horrible fight where a large girl was beating the shit out of a smaller girl with 100s of kids whooping it up around them. Crazy time. Plenty of more stories from his time in bad schools in South Seattle. Scenes out of a movie bad. Most people can't imagine the out-control violent environment that exists in some US public schools. Even in cities like Seattle. I can't imagine how bad it could be for kids forced to go to bad schools in big cities like Baltimore, Philly, Chicago, LA, DC, and such.
- surge 6y ago
  Want to tack this on. "In Finland, where substantial physical activity is part of the school day, rates of ADHD are also very low. Meanwhile, in the U.S. children are asked to sit still for the majority of the day. Elementary school students often get only 15-20 minutes of recess a day, a far cry from the 60-90 minutes their parents had. Coincidentally, ADHD rates in the U.S. have gone up over the last 15 years. " https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisonescalante/2020/08/11/researchers-doubt-that-certain-mental-disorders-are-disorders-at-all/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisonescalante/2020/08/11/rese...
seneca 6y ago
A common joke in the home-school community is: "I was worried my kid was missing out on the socialization of public schools, so I beat him up and stole his lunch money". People have very anachronistic views of home schooling. A generation ago it was fair to believe to was mostly ultra religious people wanting to shelter their children. These days, a large chunk of it is people that have no faith in public schools to educate their children, and people who want to avoid political influences that are creeping into public schools.
- primrose 6y ago
  Or get involved with drugs.
- 1124816 6y ago
  > People have very anachronistic views of home schooling. Yeah, those people have never set foot in a public school in the bible belt. Separation of church and state my ass.
  - surge 6y ago
    Yeah, that's actually a great argument, and no matter what school you're kid is going to be exposed to the personal crackpot values, politics, and theories of any teacher, the more likely a teacher is to share their personal values the more likely they're not something. They often forget their job is purely to deliver content based on the curriculum and there is a boundary there they need to respect. i generally respect teachers, but I don't trust someone who got a 4 year degree and certification to take an underpaying job making less than an average college educated salary, and often requiring a breadwining spouse to live comfortably, to think rationally about something including their value systems. Yes, they may have done it for other reasons, but that's still an indicator of making major life decisions on emotional thinking and further contributes to the issue of underpaid teachers (they're not going to pay you more if there are plenty of teachers willing to work for that salary). I'm dubious and sceptical of the kind of person who reads The Secret, or relates everything in life to Harry Potter, but says all religion is dumb. I've had one teacher tell my sister my mom was awful and was cheating on her taxes in front of the entire class humiliating her because my single mother, didn't get my sister a SS card, which at the time you didn't need until you paid into SS. You don't have to like every parent, but ultimately the child is their responsiblity, the values of a child are up to a parent to pass on. Not the teacher's or the government's role. Outside of something that is actually inflicting harm, and you can hate religion but its not the worst thing in and of itself and bad parents don't need religion to mess a kid up.
isabelc 6y ago
This is true.
watwut 6y ago
Every time school is mentioned on HN it is all how hell holes schools are. And how pandemic shown school is just about childcare (and childcare is bad thing). Meanwhile, back here in real world, my kids were super happy to return back to school. Their friends were super happy to return back to school. They look forward friends and they also prefer learning in school over learning at home. Meanwhile, I as parent found out that school teaches kids better then I did, that the lessons were about more then I realized when looking at them. And it is not like our local school was super top heavily praised one. It is one of those ordinary average ones in system that objectively struggles.
- howlgarnish 6y ago
  HN demographics lean pretty heavily towards the lower end of the school pecking order. See also pg's essay on the topic: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
  - asdasdasdas5453 6y ago
    I wonder if it is something US specific or not. The very concept of 'popularity' is completely foreign to my experience. I don't think there was a thing such as a popular kid when I was at school or high school. I personally enjoyed a lot going to school because I could spend time with my friends. I have never witnessed any violence apart from fights form time to time between two malse wanting to show who the strongest was. I was not in a privileged school.
    - chaosite 6y ago
      it's not just a US specific thing, it's a generation specific thing. The scenarios described in the GP link is a very late 70s-80s (Gen X) thing. 90s and early 00s high-schoolers had somewhat different experiences, but they know the trope since that's what was in movies. Schools today have a different concept of a "pecking order" - it's not that nerds aren't at the bottom anymore, it's that the whole concept changed.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
wakawaka1 6y ago
As someone who was bullied as a kid, I am glad I went through it early on. I learned self confidence and standing up for myself. Glad I learned about bullies before I hit the workforce, where I had to deal with narcissistic sociopaths—- adult versions of bullies.

School also puts kids at the mercy of other kids who make fun of them or worse beat the shit out of them and break their glasses.

by xwdv 6y ago

School also puts kids at the mercy of other kids who make fun of them or worse beat the shit out of them and break their glasses.

surge 6y ago

The one place most people will experience or witness violence at least once in their life is in a school. No one mentions all the people who feel safe at home, but suffer abuse and ostracization or ignored by teachers at school. "Socialization", its like arguing people need food and then giving them dog food. Given most modern school schedules, lack of recess, and lunch breaks being barely enough time to eat, I heard even what socialization does take place is being diminished. School isn't the only and definitely not the best option for socialization. At least in home school, they mostly learn socialization by and with adults, excluding extracurricular activities and co-ops.

xwdv 6y ago
Middle school was probably the only really violent time in my life. Several occasions I got the shit beaten thoroughly out of me and I was too scared to tell anyone about it because the fuckers threatened to just show up at my house or bus stop and beat me up even harder. I believed it. I often fantasized about bringing a gun to school and blowing them away, but knew I could never do it. It was fun to think about though as a kid. Don't know whatever happened to those kids, but I hope they're in prison or dead, or just living shitty lives. I doubt they ever got better.
- surge 6y ago
  For me it was late middle, and first two years of high school. I actually had a guy wait in the hallways for me to pass by to terrorize me for one particular class. Another one I had to deal with on the bus when it got to be too much and I guess the bus driver observed enough of the constant abuse by this other kid that when the fight was over (I won), they didn't turn me in. But I saw fights that were much worse, fights that ended in bleeding, cracked ribs and concussions, thankfully there was hospital across the road. This was in a rural region high school, in the 90s, I can only imagine what its like in places with actual gangs, today, etc. The worse part about it is, you tell the teachers, they do nothing substantial, then you're a snitch. If you do the one thing likely to solve the problem, which is fight back, you're punished, and now the cops are called and you're likely arrested. Some kids eventually snap, and parents wonder why school shootings are a thing.
- ponker 6y ago
  Don’t look them up. I remember hearing about someone who basically had their life thrown into crisis when they looked up their main bully and found out that he was rich, married to a beautiful woman, had three perfect-seeming children, etc.
  - eeZah7Ux 6y ago
    What on earth is a "perfect-seeming" person?
    - ponker 6y ago
      A kid who is smiling and well behaved in a Facebook photo. Basically, the guy worked at a grocery store, was single, wasn’t an unhappy guy, but always thought karma had caught up to his bully. When he discovered that karma doesn’t exist it sent him into depression and rage.
primrose 6y ago
"Public schools are literal prisons for children and the only time many people will ever encounter physical violence in their lives." ~Michael Malice
- surge 6y ago
  https://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=25919951&bcid=25919951&rssid=25919941&item=http%3a%2f%2fapi.edweek.org%2fv1%2few%2f%3fuuid%3d8805A088-82E5-11E9-B21E-B4F258D98AAA https://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=25919951&bcid=25919951&r... https://nypost.com/2018/01/30/teen-suspended-for-inciting-violence-with-anti-bullying-video/ https://nypost.com/2018/01/30/teen-suspended-for-inciting-vi... https://reason.com/2020/09/07/zoom-nerf-gun-school-cops-kid-isaiah-elliott/ https://reason.com/2020/09/07/zoom-nerf-gun-school-cops-kid-... They treat their students like it.
  - primrose 6y ago
    Give everyone vouchers and education will be 10 times better.
    - natch 6y ago
      That will just splinter society further into divisive religious and other ideological tribes who can’t understand each other or even get along. We have some of this now but vouchers make it worse and drain the budgets of public schools. The money has to come from somewhere and it ends up coming from taxpayers. So then less taxpayer money is available to do actual helpful things.
      - primrose 6y ago
        Denmark ties education funds to each student, not the school district. They seem to be doing fine.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        > Denmark ties education funds to each student, not the school district. They seem to be doing fine. Lots of places don't, and are also doing fine. That's because that particular feature is orthogonal to any real issue.
pnw_hazor 6y ago
I still remember my first fight, it was at school in 2d grade in Seattle. I was a new kid, a jerk jumped me right in class for touching his chair. Luckily it was harmless. I was not bullied after probably because I was not small or completely friendless even though I was shy and quiet. The next time was in 5th grade in Texas (new kid again -- I was the weirdo from Seattle). Also harmless. We didn't even get suspended or put on detention in those days. The next time was in the Army defending someone who was being bullied by a racist. That was scary for me because I was so angry I could have really hurt someone. Luckily, cooler heads intervened. Growing up, I heard stories from cousins that went to public school in the Chicago area. Major fights everyday. Though they managed to stay out of harms way. Back in Seattle, my son got suspended for play fighting in middle school (zero tolerance) but otherwise he made it out without getting into any fights -- it helped that he was/is very tall and a popular athlete. Onetime when I picked him up after a dance there was a horrible fight where a large girl was beating the shit out of a smaller girl with 100s of kids whooping it up around them. Crazy time. Plenty of more stories from his time in bad schools in South Seattle. Scenes out of a movie bad. Most people can't imagine the out-control violent environment that exists in some US public schools. Even in cities like Seattle. I can't imagine how bad it could be for kids forced to go to bad schools in big cities like Baltimore, Philly, Chicago, LA, DC, and such.
surge 6y ago
Want to tack this on. "In Finland, where substantial physical activity is part of the school day, rates of ADHD are also very low. Meanwhile, in the U.S. children are asked to sit still for the majority of the day. Elementary school students often get only 15-20 minutes of recess a day, a far cry from the 60-90 minutes their parents had. Coincidentally, ADHD rates in the U.S. have gone up over the last 15 years. " https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisonescalante/2020/08/11/researchers-doubt-that-certain-mental-disorders-are-disorders-at-all/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisonescalante/2020/08/11/rese...

seneca 6y ago

A common joke in the home-school community is: "I was worried my kid was missing out on the socialization of public schools, so I beat him up and stole his lunch money". People have very anachronistic views of home schooling. A generation ago it was fair to believe to was mostly ultra religious people wanting to shelter their children. These days, a large chunk of it is people that have no faith in public schools to educate their children, and people who want to avoid political influences that are creeping into public schools.

primrose 6y ago
Or get involved with drugs.
1124816 6y ago
> People have very anachronistic views of home schooling. Yeah, those people have never set foot in a public school in the bible belt. Separation of church and state my ass.
- surge 6y ago
  Yeah, that's actually a great argument, and no matter what school you're kid is going to be exposed to the personal crackpot values, politics, and theories of any teacher, the more likely a teacher is to share their personal values the more likely they're not something. They often forget their job is purely to deliver content based on the curriculum and there is a boundary there they need to respect. i generally respect teachers, but I don't trust someone who got a 4 year degree and certification to take an underpaying job making less than an average college educated salary, and often requiring a breadwining spouse to live comfortably, to think rationally about something including their value systems. Yes, they may have done it for other reasons, but that's still an indicator of making major life decisions on emotional thinking and further contributes to the issue of underpaid teachers (they're not going to pay you more if there are plenty of teachers willing to work for that salary). I'm dubious and sceptical of the kind of person who reads The Secret, or relates everything in life to Harry Potter, but says all religion is dumb. I've had one teacher tell my sister my mom was awful and was cheating on her taxes in front of the entire class humiliating her because my single mother, didn't get my sister a SS card, which at the time you didn't need until you paid into SS. You don't have to like every parent, but ultimately the child is their responsiblity, the values of a child are up to a parent to pass on. Not the teacher's or the government's role. Outside of something that is actually inflicting harm, and you can hate religion but its not the worst thing in and of itself and bad parents don't need religion to mess a kid up.

isabelc 6y ago

This is true.

watwut 6y ago

Every time school is mentioned on HN it is all how hell holes schools are. And how pandemic shown school is just about childcare (and childcare is bad thing). Meanwhile, back here in real world, my kids were super happy to return back to school. Their friends were super happy to return back to school. They look forward friends and they also prefer learning in school over learning at home. Meanwhile, I as parent found out that school teaches kids better then I did, that the lessons were about more then I realized when looking at them. And it is not like our local school was super top heavily praised one. It is one of those ordinary average ones in system that objectively struggles.

howlgarnish 6y ago
HN demographics lean pretty heavily towards the lower end of the school pecking order. See also pg's essay on the topic: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
- asdasdasdas5453 6y ago
  I wonder if it is something US specific or not. The very concept of 'popularity' is completely foreign to my experience. I don't think there was a thing such as a popular kid when I was at school or high school. I personally enjoyed a lot going to school because I could spend time with my friends. I have never witnessed any violence apart from fights form time to time between two malse wanting to show who the strongest was. I was not in a privileged school.
  - chaosite 6y ago
    it's not just a US specific thing, it's a generation specific thing. The scenarios described in the GP link is a very late 70s-80s (Gen X) thing. 90s and early 00s high-schoolers had somewhat different experiences, but they know the trope since that's what was in movies. Schools today have a different concept of a "pecking order" - it's not that nerds aren't at the bottom anymore, it's that the whole concept changed.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

wakawaka1 6y ago

As someone who was bullied as a kid, I am glad I went through it early on. I learned self confidence and standing up for myself. Glad I learned about bullies before I hit the workforce, where I had to deal with narcissistic sociopaths—- adult versions of bullies.