4 ms·

> is close to impossible to evaluate (and fire bad) teachers in public schools It is harder to hire new (good) teachers than it is to fire bad teachers. My fi

> is close to impossible to evaluate (and fire bad) teachers in public schools It is harder to hire new (good) teachers than it is to fire bad teachers. My first teaching job paid $29,000 a year in 2004 and I had a CS degree. My classmate who I went to high school with, same college, same major, same minor, and moved back to the same town.. his starting salary was $80,000 and they paid for him to get his mba. He works at Google now. 16 years later and I make $60,000 teaching (because I moved to a much wealthier district). Next week I start a new job programming for $80,000. Who is going to teach cs in my place? Who is going to turn down $80,000 - $100,000 for a $50,000 teaching job... In a school with 3000+ students, during a pandemic?

humanrebar 6y ago
Everyone knows the answers, but why would a good CS teacher make so little? Seems like demand for high school level CS education is through the roof and the talent doesn't come cheap. No one would design our educational system this way from scratch.
- hdctambien 6y ago
  Teachers are not paid based on supply and demand. We all get paid the same amount (by district) based purely on years of teaching experience. With little perks for masters degrees ($1000 per year on my district) or teaching a CTE class like computer science ($2500 per year but 5 extra work days), and I even got a few extra steps on the ladder for industry experience (9 years experience for me, about $5000 up the ladder) Some districts are doing a Pay For Performance situation, where "good teachers" can earn lots more... But I have a feeling the average teacher wage is lower in those districts and is highly dependent on what classes and mix of students your administrators give you (the AP calc teacher is going to have higher achieving students than the class full of seniors that are just taking algebra 1) it all depends on how "performance" is measured..
  - humanrebar 6y ago
    It's worth noting that the private sector doesn't have performance based pay figured out either. But it has a lot less ability to utterly deny pressure from the supply of labor or the demand for services. At any rate, it's a shame. And folks will blame systemic educational failures on a lot of things, but this basically boils down to an entrenched bureaucratic culture that really has a regressive outcome. Rich parents, parents in university towns, and parents who are engineers will get their children access.
  - bsder 6y ago
    > Teachers are not paid based on supply and demand. Actually, they are. There's just lots of crappy supply. Pennsylvania got wonderfully hosed by this. Back in the late 1990s(?) Pennsylvania put up a real teacher's test. The problem was that almost half the teachers and would-be teachers failed the test. When Pennsylvania was about to have to face the reality of supply and demand (lots of money to pull in teachers who could actually pass the test), they simply scrapped the testing plan instead. People only care about education quality until they have to pay for it.
    - hdctambien 6y ago
      I think we agree. It has become clear to me that my job is to babysit first, and educate second. If all you really want are babysitters, then you can get away with paying babysitter wages. And you'll be supplied with babysitters. Babysitting at scale is actually pretty cheap. I get about $1.33 per student per hour, if you only count the time I am in the room with kids.
AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
That would be a CS-specific thing. If you were a chemistry, history or anything major, a salary of $60k would be much more in proportion that what could be made in "industry". And it would be a brave act for school administration to say that CS teachers will be earning two times more than everyone else.
- hdctambien 6y ago
  The chemistry, history, or anything teachers wouldn't get the 2500 stipend or the industry experience bump (even if they were a professional chemist for 20 years!), so would only make $60,000 after 30 years of teaching (at which point they would max out the ladder) 0 years experience, 45,000. 30 years experience, 60,000 (in my district) Do you have a phd? You get +$2000 a year. The head football coach makes $100,000+. The band director makes $100,000+.
  - AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
    > The head football coach makes $100,000+ I'm waiting for the day when schools will start opening "adult education programs" with seven-digit scholarships to beef up their football teams.
RhysU 6y ago
Someone who wants a guaranteed pension, most likely. Those are rare and of non-trivial value.

humanrebar 6y ago

Everyone knows the answers, but why would a good CS teacher make so little? Seems like demand for high school level CS education is through the roof and the talent doesn't come cheap. No one would design our educational system this way from scratch.

hdctambien 6y ago
Teachers are not paid based on supply and demand. We all get paid the same amount (by district) based purely on years of teaching experience. With little perks for masters degrees ($1000 per year on my district) or teaching a CTE class like computer science ($2500 per year but 5 extra work days), and I even got a few extra steps on the ladder for industry experience (9 years experience for me, about $5000 up the ladder) Some districts are doing a Pay For Performance situation, where "good teachers" can earn lots more... But I have a feeling the average teacher wage is lower in those districts and is highly dependent on what classes and mix of students your administrators give you (the AP calc teacher is going to have higher achieving students than the class full of seniors that are just taking algebra 1) it all depends on how "performance" is measured..
- humanrebar 6y ago
  It's worth noting that the private sector doesn't have performance based pay figured out either. But it has a lot less ability to utterly deny pressure from the supply of labor or the demand for services. At any rate, it's a shame. And folks will blame systemic educational failures on a lot of things, but this basically boils down to an entrenched bureaucratic culture that really has a regressive outcome. Rich parents, parents in university towns, and parents who are engineers will get their children access.
- bsder 6y ago
  > Teachers are not paid based on supply and demand. Actually, they are. There's just lots of crappy supply. Pennsylvania got wonderfully hosed by this. Back in the late 1990s(?) Pennsylvania put up a real teacher's test. The problem was that almost half the teachers and would-be teachers failed the test. When Pennsylvania was about to have to face the reality of supply and demand (lots of money to pull in teachers who could actually pass the test), they simply scrapped the testing plan instead. People only care about education quality until they have to pay for it.
  - hdctambien 6y ago
    I think we agree. It has become clear to me that my job is to babysit first, and educate second. If all you really want are babysitters, then you can get away with paying babysitter wages. And you'll be supplied with babysitters. Babysitting at scale is actually pretty cheap. I get about $1.33 per student per hour, if you only count the time I am in the room with kids.

AlexTWithBeard 6y ago

That would be a CS-specific thing. If you were a chemistry, history or anything major, a salary of $60k would be much more in proportion that what could be made in "industry". And it would be a brave act for school administration to say that CS teachers will be earning two times more than everyone else.

hdctambien 6y ago
The chemistry, history, or anything teachers wouldn't get the 2500 stipend or the industry experience bump (even if they were a professional chemist for 20 years!), so would only make $60,000 after 30 years of teaching (at which point they would max out the ladder) 0 years experience, 45,000. 30 years experience, 60,000 (in my district) Do you have a phd? You get +$2000 a year. The head football coach makes $100,000+. The band director makes $100,000+.
- AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
  > The head football coach makes $100,000+ I'm waiting for the day when schools will start opening "adult education programs" with seven-digit scholarships to beef up their football teams.

RhysU 6y ago

Someone who wants a guaranteed pension, most likely. Those are rare and of non-trivial value.