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> Instead, the state should collect property taxes, not counties and distribute funding proportionally to students' population This was done in Kansas. Here's

> Instead, the state should collect property taxes, not counties and distribute funding proportionally to students' population This was done in Kansas. Here's what happens: 1. Taxes are driven into the ground (...why would wealthy suburbs vote to tax themselves if that $ is just going to be redistributed away from their schools?). 2. Districts in wealthy suburbs run fundraisers that haul in six figures for breakfast (literally, and regularly). Those donations then pay for additional instructional staff, materials, books, etc. 3. Schools that can't make six figures on charity brunches for the band, golf house galas for the football team, and dinner parties for the STEM teacher are screwed. This isn't a systems problem, it's a values/morality problem. If you change the system and don't change people's values then they will find a way to route around your system. > It is close to impossible to evaluate (and fire bad) teachers in public schools It's possible to fire bad teachers. Harder than it should be, but absolutely 100% possible. Evaluation is the more difficult problem, but I'm not sure source of funding has anything to do with that.

asdasfasdfasdf 6y ago
I think fundraisers should be banned as part of the process... or perhaps max contributions should be capped per student. They almost universally benefit the kids who have better connected and wealthier parents. One immediate example: a local school had a fundraiser for portable air cleaners for each classroom to help reduce the risk of covid. The poorer schools have nothing, and of course the poorer schools are in poorer neighborhoods where there are more minorities that are already disproportionately impacted by covid.
deleted 6y ago
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AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
> band, golf house galas for the football team While golf house, band and football team are all nice things to have, they are heavily optional for providing a good fundamental education.
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  1. Sorry for the confusing grammar. In that sentence, the golf house is the location at which the gala for the football team is held. Not a resource for the school. (E.g., because the gold house is owned by a country club whose members are the parents of many of the football players.) 2. Band, sports teams, and other extra curricular are: a) often not de facto optional (the poorest districts in the country will scrape together the money for a football team), and b) actually serve an important social + educational function. There’s lots of data correlating long-term life outcomes with participation in after-school extra-curricular activities. 3. These districts also both directly and indirectly subsidize their educational offerings with charitable donations.
humanrebar 6y ago
They should have Universal School Funding where each student gets a Student Education Account that follows the student. In cases where local schools are all abysmal, using that money on accredited online or at home educational opportunities should be possible. Seems like we're already doing ad hoc ill considered online schools whipped up by local school districts. Might as well let people innovate in the space and do it properly. If parents want to try it. Some do. Source of funding absolutely has everything to do with it. Schools only indirectly lose funding for bad teachers. If you get a bad barber, you go to a different barbershop. Schools don't have the same economic pressures. They have political and bureaucratic pressure, mainly.
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  The hybrid public/private market in higher education is a good warning of the perils of such a system. Many of the pathological incentives for voters, legislatures, and institutions that lead to horribly expensive higher ed would also exist in the "Student Education Account" scheme you propose. If we go this route, I promise you'll be seeing "I can't retire because I spent $100K on my kid's K12 schooling" in 20 years. Also -- and I admit this is personal preference -- I don't want my tax dollars redistributed to the local branch of the Catholic or Mormon church. Which is absolutely what would happen.
  - humanrebar 6y ago
    School is already horribly expensive, both in per student costs and in property values in successful school districts. The irony is all that money being thrown around doesn't end up paying for qualified STEM faculty. As for funding religious schools, that's part of civil life. Others will object to funding atheism or critical race theory. Should we (forever) fight it out politically or should we find ways to disagree in the spirit of compromise?
    - throwawaygh 6y ago
      > As for funding religious schools, that's part of civil life. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. My tax dollars pay for a Church I am no part of is what was meant by Establishment. This is not true in every civil society, but it has always literally been Rule #1 in this civil society.
andi999 6y ago
Saying it is a values/morality problem means you are giving up on solving the problem.
- twblalock 6y ago
  No, it means you are saying that the solution depends on changing people's minds rather than tinkering with the tax code for no benefit.
  - andi999 6y ago
    Trying to change peoples mind on something so fundamental as wanting the best for their children is almost as futile as trying to change the laws of physics. If you look at history one of the solution of social problems in communism was to change peoples mind (create the new men) mostly through methods like criticism and selfcriticism and education from early age on. While I believe this changed the character of the people to a certain extends it didnt really work. What my takeaway is, you shouldnt work against (or shouldnt rely on changing) human nature if you want to achieve solutions. (Not picking specifically on communism here, was looking for examples. What works of course is raising peoples awareness about things they didnt know and support change, like palm oil or recycling)
    - throwawaygh 6y ago
      > wanting the best for their children K12 education is not zero-sum. In many ways it's positive-sum. Even private schools and "good" high schools in the USA are mediocre at best. Raise the median quality and the best schools will also get better.

asdasfasdfasdf 6y ago

I think fundraisers should be banned as part of the process... or perhaps max contributions should be capped per student. They almost universally benefit the kids who have better connected and wealthier parents. One immediate example: a local school had a fundraiser for portable air cleaners for each classroom to help reduce the risk of covid. The poorer schools have nothing, and of course the poorer schools are in poorer neighborhoods where there are more minorities that are already disproportionately impacted by covid.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

AlexTWithBeard 6y ago

> band, golf house galas for the football team While golf house, band and football team are all nice things to have, they are heavily optional for providing a good fundamental education.

throwawaygh 6y ago
1. Sorry for the confusing grammar. In that sentence, the golf house is the location at which the gala for the football team is held. Not a resource for the school. (E.g., because the gold house is owned by a country club whose members are the parents of many of the football players.) 2. Band, sports teams, and other extra curricular are: a) often not de facto optional (the poorest districts in the country will scrape together the money for a football team), and b) actually serve an important social + educational function. There’s lots of data correlating long-term life outcomes with participation in after-school extra-curricular activities. 3. These districts also both directly and indirectly subsidize their educational offerings with charitable donations.

humanrebar 6y ago

They should have Universal School Funding where each student gets a Student Education Account that follows the student. In cases where local schools are all abysmal, using that money on accredited online or at home educational opportunities should be possible. Seems like we're already doing ad hoc ill considered online schools whipped up by local school districts. Might as well let people innovate in the space and do it properly. If parents want to try it. Some do. Source of funding absolutely has everything to do with it. Schools only indirectly lose funding for bad teachers. If you get a bad barber, you go to a different barbershop. Schools don't have the same economic pressures. They have political and bureaucratic pressure, mainly.

throwawaygh 6y ago
The hybrid public/private market in higher education is a good warning of the perils of such a system. Many of the pathological incentives for voters, legislatures, and institutions that lead to horribly expensive higher ed would also exist in the "Student Education Account" scheme you propose. If we go this route, I promise you'll be seeing "I can't retire because I spent $100K on my kid's K12 schooling" in 20 years. Also -- and I admit this is personal preference -- I don't want my tax dollars redistributed to the local branch of the Catholic or Mormon church. Which is absolutely what would happen.
- humanrebar 6y ago
  School is already horribly expensive, both in per student costs and in property values in successful school districts. The irony is all that money being thrown around doesn't end up paying for qualified STEM faculty. As for funding religious schools, that's part of civil life. Others will object to funding atheism or critical race theory. Should we (forever) fight it out politically or should we find ways to disagree in the spirit of compromise?
  - throwawaygh 6y ago
    > As for funding religious schools, that's part of civil life. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. My tax dollars pay for a Church I am no part of is what was meant by Establishment. This is not true in every civil society, but it has always literally been Rule #1 in this civil society.

andi999 6y ago

Saying it is a values/morality problem means you are giving up on solving the problem.

twblalock 6y ago
No, it means you are saying that the solution depends on changing people's minds rather than tinkering with the tax code for no benefit.
- andi999 6y ago
  Trying to change peoples mind on something so fundamental as wanting the best for their children is almost as futile as trying to change the laws of physics. If you look at history one of the solution of social problems in communism was to change peoples mind (create the new men) mostly through methods like criticism and selfcriticism and education from early age on. While I believe this changed the character of the people to a certain extends it didnt really work. What my takeaway is, you shouldnt work against (or shouldnt rely on changing) human nature if you want to achieve solutions. (Not picking specifically on communism here, was looking for examples. What works of course is raising peoples awareness about things they didnt know and support change, like palm oil or recycling)
  - throwawaygh 6y ago
    > wanting the best for their children K12 education is not zero-sum. In many ways it's positive-sum. Even private schools and "good" high schools in the USA are mediocre at best. Raise the median quality and the best schools will also get better.