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> The desire to protect children may put their long-term well-being at stake. The virus barely affects children. It's never been about the children, only about

> The desire to protect children may put their long-term well-being at stake. The virus barely affects children. It's never been about the children, only about protecting the welfare of old people at all costs, the youth be damned.

happytoexplain 6y ago
Are all people either children or the elderly?
- anoncake 6y ago
  Youngish adults don't need protection.
readams 6y ago
Mostly it's driven by the teacher's unions. If we wanted to we could find ways to open the schools. It's just the people who feel the effects of the policy making are not the ones with a voice.
- briandear 6y ago
  Teachers unions represent the best interests of teachers, not students or parents. That’s just a fact, but people often defer to the teachers’ unions on “what’s best.” An excellent bit of marketing on the part of the unions.
  - mar177 6y ago
    There is some initial evidence that teacher unions may influence school openings. From the abstract: Using data on the reopening decisions of 835 public school districts in the United States, we find that school districts in locations with stronger teachers’ unions are less likely to reopen in person even after we control semi-parametrically for differences in local demographic characteristics. These results are robust to four measures of union strength, various potential confounding characteristics, and a further disaggregation to the county level. We also do not find evidence to suggest that measures of COVID-19 risk are correlated with school reopening decisions. http://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3684867 http://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3684867
  - xmasjones 6y ago
    The problem is every time the teachers Union is fighting for something they say “it’s for the kids” when it’s really not.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      Teachers unions on COVID have not been shy about citing their members health and safety as a central concern.
  - nineplay 6y ago
    <X> unions represent the best interests of <X> A common teacher complaint, IME, is an expectation that they should be ready and willing to sacrifice anything because of their love of the students. Teachers have every right to have their own interests represented. Much as I'd like to see our schools re-open, I wouldn't sign up to be the school nurse for anything. Every single kid with every slight Covid symptom is going to come to my office with their poorly fitting badly worn masks. What a nightmare.
  - twblalock 6y ago
    All those other countries that have way better educational outcomes than the USA also have teacher's unions, and their teacher's unions are at least as strong. If unions were really the fundamental problem it would be hard to explain why those other educational systems can be so much better than the USA's.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Mostly it's driven by the teacher's unions. If we wanted to we could find ways to open the schools. It's just the people who feel the effects of the policy making are not the ones with a voice. No, the problem you are complaining of here is that the people that feel the effects of the policy making have too much of a voice. I mean, unless you are have a convincing argument that teachers are somehow unaffected by policy regarding the manner in which teaching is conducted.
kodyo 6y ago
There may have been some political angles being played, too. But who are we to judge.
Igelau 6y ago
This is what's becoming worrisome to me. It would be horrible to lose so many of our elders. But is that as bad as wrecking our young? Someone from LessWrong needs to step in and run the cold-hearted utilitarian calculus on this.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> The virus barely affects children Even if that was true, it's not true of adults, including the ones that work in schools, or the ones that have children in the household.
- username90 6y ago
  They said "to protect the children" instead of "to protect the teachers". They lied. People don't have to come with that rebuttal every time someone corrects the lie that we do this to protect the children.

happytoexplain 6y ago

Are all people either children or the elderly?

anoncake 6y ago
Youngish adults don't need protection.

readams 6y ago

Mostly it's driven by the teacher's unions. If we wanted to we could find ways to open the schools. It's just the people who feel the effects of the policy making are not the ones with a voice.

briandear 6y ago
Teachers unions represent the best interests of teachers, not students or parents. That’s just a fact, but people often defer to the teachers’ unions on “what’s best.” An excellent bit of marketing on the part of the unions.
- mar177 6y ago
  There is some initial evidence that teacher unions may influence school openings. From the abstract: Using data on the reopening decisions of 835 public school districts in the United States, we find that school districts in locations with stronger teachers’ unions are less likely to reopen in person even after we control semi-parametrically for differences in local demographic characteristics. These results are robust to four measures of union strength, various potential confounding characteristics, and a further disaggregation to the county level. We also do not find evidence to suggest that measures of COVID-19 risk are correlated with school reopening decisions. http://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3684867 http://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3684867
- xmasjones 6y ago
  The problem is every time the teachers Union is fighting for something they say “it’s for the kids” when it’s really not.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    Teachers unions on COVID have not been shy about citing their members health and safety as a central concern.
- nineplay 6y ago
  <X> unions represent the best interests of <X> A common teacher complaint, IME, is an expectation that they should be ready and willing to sacrifice anything because of their love of the students. Teachers have every right to have their own interests represented. Much as I'd like to see our schools re-open, I wouldn't sign up to be the school nurse for anything. Every single kid with every slight Covid symptom is going to come to my office with their poorly fitting badly worn masks. What a nightmare.
- twblalock 6y ago
  All those other countries that have way better educational outcomes than the USA also have teacher's unions, and their teacher's unions are at least as strong. If unions were really the fundamental problem it would be hard to explain why those other educational systems can be so much better than the USA's.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Mostly it's driven by the teacher's unions. If we wanted to we could find ways to open the schools. It's just the people who feel the effects of the policy making are not the ones with a voice. No, the problem you are complaining of here is that the people that feel the effects of the policy making have too much of a voice. I mean, unless you are have a convincing argument that teachers are somehow unaffected by policy regarding the manner in which teaching is conducted.

kodyo 6y ago

There may have been some political angles being played, too. But who are we to judge.

Igelau 6y ago

This is what's becoming worrisome to me. It would be horrible to lose so many of our elders. But is that as bad as wrecking our young? Someone from LessWrong needs to step in and run the cold-hearted utilitarian calculus on this.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> The virus barely affects children Even if that was true, it's not true of adults, including the ones that work in schools, or the ones that have children in the household.

username90 6y ago
They said "to protect the children" instead of "to protect the teachers". They lied. People don't have to come with that rebuttal every time someone corrects the lie that we do this to protect the children.