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Show HN: Growing Wine Grapes in My Parents' Basement
- jmheflin 6y agoHi HN! Woke up to more news about wine country in California burning. :( One of my recent projects involves growing wine grapes from vineyard cuttings. The end goal is to collect cane prunings from local vineyards and use them to produce high quality wine grapes in a greenhouse. Please reach out if you know of anyone with a vineyard that may be willing to help develop this solution further. My email is jormanheflin at gmail.com. Read more about my project on hefvin.com and below: When grape leaves drop in the fall, canes leftover from the previous growing season enter winter dormancy. 90% of these dormant canes are removed every winter to make room on the trellis for new growth. Vineyard workers usually chop or burn these cuttings and return them into the soil. Hefvin takes these prunings and uses them to grow grapes hydroponically, in a controlled environment. Then, we sell the grapes back to wineries. We provide wineries with the highest quality grapes, which allows them to make excellent wines. By growing the grapes in a controlled environment, we reduce year-to-year variability in fruit quality, and maximize the flavor potential of every cluster. See website for pictures
- quesera 6y ago> Hefvin takes these prunings and uses them to grow grapes hydroponically, in a controlled environment. Interesting! How does that square with the story that the distinctive qualities of specific grapes/vineyards is dependent on the regional and localized soil conditions and climate?
- jmheflin 6y agoPlease see my response to metanoia! I addressed this there.
- bootcampwhere 6y agoIt's all bullshit, that's how.
- Twirrim 6y ago> Vineyard workers usually chop or burn these cuttings and return them into the soil At least in the case of chopping and returning to the soil, the nutrients are being recycled, available for the vine to use next season. Aren't you going to harm their nutrient cycle by taking the cuttings away?
- jmheflin 6y agoAnother great question. Thanks for taking the time to read my post. Larry Williams, a professor at UC Davis did a lot of work on this. He found that canes are not a significant contributor to vine nutrient status. Only 2% of the nitrogen that falls to the ground in canes ends up back in the vine the next year.
- rubidium 6y agoThere's just a single vine stalk shown in the photo. Any pictures of the fuller setup/basement? Interested in seeing what equipment it takes to get going.
- jmheflin 6y agoI know, sorry. I am writing a post now that will detail the whole process with more pictures. The first thing you need to get started is the dormant cuttings. From there it doesn't take any specialized equipment.
- oefnak 6y agoMaybe a better time for a Show HN would be when you've finished that write-up?
- dejv 6y agoSo, I am actuall winemaker and wine grower myself and I am a bit sceptical about all of this. Did you actually get any fruit already? What is the yield per plant? What are you going to do with the wood after the fruit is set: are you overwintering it or throwing away?
- jmheflin 6y agoThanks for your questions! I have gotten fruit. About 50% of the cuttings I use produce fruit right now. I am still working to optimize the process. I throw the cuttings away after they produce fruit. More cuttings can be collected each year as canes are pruned in the vineyard.
- notdang 6y agoSounds like a ponzi scheme
- bredren 6y agoHey, how do you handle pests like gnats? My first gen indoor veggie grow suffered badly from gnats.
- jmheflin 6y agoTry to let the soil/media dry out between waterings. I use yellow sticky traps and neem oil for plants I am going to eat. For ornamentals, I use Marathon 1%, shake a bit on the soil every 2 weeks or so.
- jacobush 6y agoTheoretically, shouldn't it be possible to create growing conditions which are filtered, i.e. no pests can enter the growing area?
- jmheflin 6y agoYes this is possible! Usually done with repurposed clean room pass thrus. It becomes harder to achieve as greenhouses get to 1+ acres in footprint.
- pvaldes 6y agoUsing pesticides is incompatible with selling fruits that grow from a rooted stick IMO. There is not enough time to respect legal safety intervals.
- rozap 6y agoNeem oil
- quickthrower2 6y agoHow does this work with the snooty world of wine? I guess wine made with these grapes is a different product. Does it affect the final price of the wine? Can the flavour be as good?
- jmheflin 6y agoHi! These are great questions. Thanks for your interest. At the low end of the winemaking market ($5/bottle), grapes are a commodity that provide sugars for alcoholic fermentation. At the high end of the market ($100+/bottle), each vine is individually managed to maximize grape quality. Our grapes will be priced comparable to other grapes at the high end of the market. Right now, Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon grapes sell for about $8000/ton. However, annual yields fluctuate wildly, so our greenhouse grown product may be used by some winemakers as hedge against the risk of down years. Growing indoors also allows us to produce grapes at any time of year, potentially allowing winemakers to ferment two or more batches per year. Growing the grapes takes about 6 months from budbreak to harvest. Grape vines take up water and simple nutrients like nitrogen, potassium and calcium from the soil. The grapes make all of their more complex biomolecules, including the flavor molecules in-house. Water stress and nutrient deficiencies can have positive impacts on the flavor compounds that accumulate inside the berries. Growing hydroponically gives us the ability to better control these elements, leading to increased accumulation of important flavor molecules. Sun exposure and temperature will also be optimized to maximize biosynthesis of flavor compounds. It is hard to say if these grapes will taste as good or better than their soil grown counterparts. Grape quality is usually based on three measurements: Brix, pH, and TA. If these three ripeness indicators fall in a specified range, the winemaker will come into the vineyard and taste the grapes. Each winemaker has different flavor preferences, but as long as we can hit the marks for the three quantitative quality indicators, we should have a good start. Growing the grapes indoors will hopefully provide winemakers with peace of mind. These crops will not be susceptible to pest or disease pressures that often influence harvest decisions. I know right now in CA, a lot of growers are harvesting before the grapes have fully matured to try and avoid smoke taint. In general, the longer the grapes can hang on the vine, the more interesting the flavor profile becomes. Growing in a controlled environment allows for unlimited hang time as we do not have many of the usual pressures like bunch rot, birds, heat waves, heavy rains etc. The last thing I will say is that climate change is negatively effecting wine growing regions around the world, impacting their ability to grow high quality grapes. The most immediate negative effect in my opinion will be the early breakdown of malic acid in the berries. This acid is important in malolactic fermentation. Growing grapes in a greenhouse with climate control would help to mitigate the impacts of climate change on wine quality. For more on climate change and wine, here is an interesting article I read recently. https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/climate-change-is-reshaping-wine-as-we-know-it/2019/06/06/7d8082c8-8861-11e9-98c1-e945ae5db8fb_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/climate-change... Cheers!
- TuringNYC 6y agoWhy do you "collect cane prunings from local vineyards and use them" rather than grow from seeds directly? If you grew from seeds, I imagine it takes longer, but how much longer (vs prunings)? I've been trying to grow directly from seeds from produce we eat at home, with mixed (but not zero) results. Wondering if i'm just making a novice mistake.
- gbrindisi 6y agoYou can do from seeds of course but it will take longer, that’s why usually plants that are expected to grow fruits are propagated. (I’m far from an expert, just raised in a wine producing countryside)
- woah 6y agoI’m guessing it reduces variability since the winery knows they are getting the exact same plant, instead of one crossed with whatever pollen blew in
- jmheflin 6y agoGreat question. Grape vines have an extremely heterozygous genome, which means that their offspring (seeds) will not resemble the parent plant. This is why grapes plants are always propagated via cuttings. I wrote a post about grape clones on the site if you are interested. https://www.hefvin.com/posts/varietal%20clones/ https://www.hefvin.com/posts/varietal%20clones/
- rsync 6y agoIt may interest you to know that the Bonny Doon guy, from the Santa Cruz area, has been attempting to grow wine grapes from seed: https://www.bonnydoonvineyard.com/on-a-mission-the-germ-of-an-idea/ https://www.bonnydoonvineyard.com/on-a-mission-the-germ-of-a...
- Veluga 6y agoPerhaps he prefers cloning a tried and tested plant over trying his luck with seeds?
- blacksqr 6y agoPics
- jmheflin 6y agoI put some pictures on my website https://www.hefvin.com/ https://www.hefvin.com/
- hevelvarik 6y agoWhat a great thread. Thanks for sharing.
- sct202 6y agoI do not have a green thumb, and was wondering how do the stalks with so few leaves produce so much fruit?
- smogcutter 6y agoI’d love to be corrected by a more experienced gardener, but my understanding is energy that a plant puts into growing leaves and stems is energy that isn’t going into growing fruit. This is part of the reason for pruning plants, which otherwise seems counterintuitive.
- jmheflin 6y agoCorrect, young leaves are BIG carbohydrate sinks until they have expanded and begun to produce their own photosynthate. Pruning off new growth allows the plant to redirect carbohydrates into existing organs. There are a few leaves around the grape cluster that supply sugar to the cluster. The rest of the leaves do not contribute to the growth of the cluster.
- tipoftheiceberg 6y agoSearch ‘plant hormones and their functions’
- pvaldes 6y ago
- gbrindisi 6y agoAwesome work! I’m trying to grow wine grapes cuttings in house, in soil for fun and so far I’m very unsuccessful. Do you have any advice for tuning optimal settings like temp, humidity, light exposure etc?
- jmheflin 6y agoThanks! The first thing I would do is check to see if the cuttings are producing roots. You may see budbreak on cuttings without roots, but they will soon shrivel and die due to lack of water. Try rooting the cuttings in a 75:25 perlite:peat mixture while keeping the rooting zone warm 25-29°C with a heat mat or soil heating wire. Water every other day and dip the cuttings in rooting hormone or soak the root end in hormone overnight before you start. You should get roots and budbreak in 2-3 weeks.
- fedreserved 6y agoComing from the hemp space (not sure if this will apply to grapes) a clone dome (plastic top slightly vented) can help keep the humidity high enough until roots sprout so they won't wilt and dry out
- pvaldes 6y agoIf you are in Europe DONT do this, grapes need to be grafted into resistant rootstock to avoid Philoxera. This would turn into a plague sanctuary, and would be a particularly bad thing in vineyard's country. Eventually the professionals will discover it and will turn really angry by that.
- im3w1l 6y agoTo what extent if any were you inspired by clandestine cannabis growers?
- ed25519FUUU 6y agoThis is really cool. I'm surprised you haven't had any issues with fungus or disease persisting in your growing area. How do you clean the greenhouse?
- jmheflin 6y agoThank you! I have had many issues. I use a dilute bleach or hydrogen peroxide solution to clean the hydroponic equipment between grows.
- ed25519FUUU 6y agoHave you considers ozone treatment? Both ozonated water and gas.
- poulsbohemian 6y agoI live in a major wine producing area. The dirty secret here is the number of wineries - some of which have scored high ratings - that buy bulk grapes and put a label on the bottle. So, hey, make wine in your basement, why not?
- mc32 6y agoI don’t think that’s a secret in Napa or SLO vineyards/wineries...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- voldacar 6y agoI know nothing about grape biology so it may be a dumb question, but how would these grape plants be pollinated? Do you need some kind of insect? or does someone have to walk around the greenhouse, shaking the vines or brushing the flowers with a paintbrush?
- f69281c 6y agoI don't know much about biology outside of a couple seasons of hobby gardening, but some plants can pollinate themselves. After a quick search it looks like grapes may do just that.
- jmheflin 6y agoHi! Wine grapes varieties have ‘perfect’ flowers which means they contain both male and female parts. They self pollinate from wind. In a greenhouse, this means you would need oscillating fans during anthesis.
- alangibson 6y agoThis is fascinating. I think of grapes as needing tons of light. Can this really be profitable needing to provide Italian summer levels of light in your parents basement?
- jmheflin 6y agoNo, this is why I am growing my 3rd batch of plants in a greenhouse!
- alangibson 6y agoMakes sense. Are you planning to grow over the winter and use light supplementation, or only in the summer? Forgive my ignorance; I'm not even sure if you could wake up a grape vine over the winter or if they need to hibernate for a period of time.
- jmheflin 6y agoGrapes actually don’t need a winter dormancy period. They grow at the equator without it. I will probably set up to grow year round in the greenhouse, with supplemental lighting during the winter. I would have to make sure winter growing is economically feasible first, with the higher electricity needs.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- sequoia 6y agoMaybe you've answered this but how is running powerful indoor grow lights which use lots of electricity rather than relying on sunlight "sustainable"?
- jmheflin 6y agoThe basement grows were just to establish the proof of concept. My future grows will all be in a greenhouse. Hydroponics also uses far less water than traditional ag.
- rsync 6y agoIs there a "bottom" to the greenhouse ? Grape vine roots grow quite deep and at some point there is no need to water them at all, especially if you are controlling heat and humidity with a greenhouse. However, if the root depth is limited I suppose you would need to water them forever ...
- veemjeem 6y agoPlants grown in hydroponic systems tend to have shorter roots because plants don't need to grow deep to acquire the same amount of water. If you ever looked at roots in soil, you may notice many roots branch off into very fine whiskers, almost like the capillaries in our vascular system. Plants grown in hydroponics lack this whisker-like growth because it doesn't need it. Depending on the hydroponic configuration, long roots may not matter at all. For example, in a deep water culture grow, a very long root would just curl up inside the bucket, so it doesn't matter as long as the bucket has enough volume for all the roots.
- jmheflin 6y agoYou totally nailed it. I would just add that I am growing these vines for only 6 months before harvesting the fruit and discarding the cutting. They do not have time to put out really long roots. In addition, air pruning of the roots happens naturally when they run out of grow media, so they never get too long.
- tipoftheiceberg 6y ago“ No disease, pest or fungal pressures to influence harvest decisions” This is inaccurate and misleading. . Every greenhouse grower is at risk of disease/pest/fungal pressures, especially the one known as Thrips.
- jmheflin 6y agoHello. Thanks for your feedback. You are correct. Every greenhouse of course has risk associated with it. However, it is less than in the field if managed properly. In general, thrips are a minor problem on wine and raisin grapes in California. From what I have read they are more of an issue for table grapes. See ‘management’ section at this link. http://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/r302300911.html#:~:text=Grape%20thrips%20and%20western%20flower,the%20numbers%20of%20thrips%20decreases http://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/r302300911.html#:~:text=Grape%20thr.... Thanks for taking the time to reach out!
- tipoftheiceberg 6y agoYou’re welcome. Thrips is just an example I used because it tends to be the most common. I still think you should rephrase your statement because saying there are ‘No’ pressures is wishful thinking and unrealistic in any growing environment.
- jmheflin 6y agoYup, will revise. Thanks!
- pvaldes 6y agoAvoid samples with signs of mosaic virus and beware if somebody in your family is allergic to wasps. You will attract pollinators so is unavoidable having some.
- Hnaomyiph 6y agoWhat is the "terroir" of a hydroponic grape? An idea I've had is to profile soil and growing conditions of specific regions and to replicate them in my greenhouse.
- pvaldes 6y agoOne of the problems is that you will face a shortage of material in a few years. As long as the producers will understand that they are paying for what they are giving for free. They will start to sold you the cuttings instead or burn them. I would try to assure the source of production before investing much more on the project. Maybe you could grow your own cuttings? Or... If you can grow cuttings, you could also just grow a plant and prune it carefully. A plant will produce fruits each year, more big and with more sugars because the plant has more capital to invest in fruits than cuttins. My bet would be than cuttings will most probably produce a worse fruit. Third footnote. In fruit producer's world, some varieties, often the best modern varieties, are copyrighted and this is serious stuff. Older varieties aren't, but the other, you can bet it. Assure that you are not using cuttings of those (or talking about them in your web), unless you want a phone call from the owner of the copyright asking for their money in royalties
- Pfhreak 6y agoI'm curious about your labeling the grapes organic. From what I've read, organic fertilizers are generally avoided in hydroponic systems. Also, if the plant that initially grew the cuttings wasn't organic, are the cuttings themselves organic?
- jmheflin 6y agoYou are right about avoiding organic fertilizers. It is my understanding that traditional hydroponic greenhouses that use inorganic nutrients are still eligible for organic certification. Cuttings are used to start every vineyard, even vineyards making wines labeled as organic. I don't think what I am doing would be different than that?
- Zuider 6y agoThe title says 'basement.' I wonder if it would be possible to grow grapes (or other crops) indoors using full spectrum LED lights?
- drannex 6y agoThey do, but using red/blue led lighting is usually far more effective and uses substantially less energy and produces less heat. Not only this, but there's been some research that finds that this improves growth and photosynthesis. Source: I experiment and grow plants indoors as a hobby.
- Johnythree 6y agoAs an ex-vinyard owner, this makes little sense. A percentage of the vines on a vinyard are constantly being replaced due to disease or mechanical damage. There is absolutely no shortage of new vines. They can be grown from cuttings, or by laying down (uncut) canes. But in practice, most commercial vines are hybrids which have been grafted onto Briar(and other) root-stock to avoid disease and increase yield. Some farms grow their own, but most buy them in from specialised nurseries. The availability of new vines is absolutely not a bottle neck to making wine.
- htnsao 6y agoCool. You might also be interested in aeroponic grow towers [1] and using chitosan for plant protection [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroponics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroponics [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866471/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866471/
- jmheflin 6y agoThanks for these links! Before I started graduate school, I worked as an engineer for a company making aeroponic systems. Great potential here. I will look in to chitosan as well.