3 ms·

Given that most of the computationally expensive work in Python is usually offloaded to C extensions (and JIT compilation is an option with Python), is the cost

by sk2020 6y ago

Given that most of the computationally expensive work in Python is usually offloaded to C extensions (and JIT compilation is an option with Python), is the cost savings in electricity that significant? A desktop PC probably only costs about 10 cents an hour to run at most. Perhaps your interest in CL is because you can recall using it in its prime. Nostalgia Or just novelty is certainly a valid argument.

Guthur 6y ago
I remember when the OP came into the CL community and it was not long after myself, and we both came long after is hey day. I dare say that not many in the community are from some bygone time. The fact is CL has by far and away a more sophisticated runtime environment than the vast majority of dynamic languages, with small talk being a stand out exception. Some of the language aesthetics have not aged well, not talking parenthesis but rather the hideously long symbol names.
- drmeister 6y ago
  Agreed! There are a couple of really clever xkcd comics about this (google: xkcd lisp). And I also would rather use PATH than default-pathname-defaults and logical pathnames are, uh, crufty. But I see these as minor blemishes on what I think is as close to a perfect programming language as I have seen. Clasp is an implementation of Common Lisp and any differences between what it does and what the standard says is a bug in Clasp that we need to fix. But Cando, Clasp+computational chemistry code, is a superset of Common Lisp and we are adding things to make life a bit more convenient. We even added optional infix arithmetic as a standard part of Cando (I know! I'm going to burn in hell between the ninth nested set of parentheses as a heretic).
  - scns 6y ago
    The last sentence painted a big smile on my face
drmeister 6y ago
We are doing computational chemistry, simulating molecular structure and designing molecules, and we want to use thousands of cores and get as much performance as possible. If my AWS bills are any measure - then yes - the cost savings in electricity and computing resources are very significant. Also, developing and maintaining Python/C++ bindings for complex libraries is very painful and frustrating. I wrote Python bindings for years using boost::python and earlier Swig and keeping bindings working and dealing with the different memory management approaches of Python and C++... bleh - it's a nightmare. At the same time Python changed from version 2 to 3.x and libraries I depended on and my own Python code was being broken and becoming outdated in ways that I had no control over. It was like trying to build a house out of sand. I've only been using Common Lisp for the past 6 years - after three decades of writing in other languages including Basic, Pascal, Smalltalk, C, Fortran, Python, PHP, Forth, Prolog... Common Lisp feels great, it feels powerful and every function I write I know will compile and run in 20 years. Common Lisp has real macros (programs that write programs! implemented in one language), dynamic variables, generic functions, the Common Lisp Object System, conditions and restarts... There are many features that haven't made it into other languages. Common Lisp makes programming interesting again.
- sk2020 6y ago
  Would you indulge me with an OOM estimate of your hosting costs for this use case?
adwn 6y ago
> Given that most of the computationally expensive work in Python is usually offloaded to C extensions That only works if your application's hotspots are in a few, decoupled parts of your code – good examples are FFTs, data compression, or encryption. It doesn't work if you can't cleanly separate your hotspots from the rest of your logic. E.g., if you write a parser and analyzer for a programming language, what part do you want to offload to C? Even if you could identify a small part that takes up the majority of execution time, it would have a complex interface, and it would take a lot of work implementing and testing that interface.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by sk2020 6y ago

Guthur 6y ago

I remember when the OP came into the CL community and it was not long after myself, and we both came long after is hey day. I dare say that not many in the community are from some bygone time. The fact is CL has by far and away a more sophisticated runtime environment than the vast majority of dynamic languages, with small talk being a stand out exception. Some of the language aesthetics have not aged well, not talking parenthesis but rather the hideously long symbol names.

drmeister 6y ago
Agreed! There are a couple of really clever xkcd comics about this (google: xkcd lisp). And I also would rather use PATH than default-pathname-defaults and logical pathnames are, uh, crufty. But I see these as minor blemishes on what I think is as close to a perfect programming language as I have seen. Clasp is an implementation of Common Lisp and any differences between what it does and what the standard says is a bug in Clasp that we need to fix. But Cando, Clasp+computational chemistry code, is a superset of Common Lisp and we are adding things to make life a bit more convenient. We even added optional infix arithmetic as a standard part of Cando (I know! I'm going to burn in hell between the ninth nested set of parentheses as a heretic).
- scns 6y ago
  The last sentence painted a big smile on my face

drmeister 6y ago

We are doing computational chemistry, simulating molecular structure and designing molecules, and we want to use thousands of cores and get as much performance as possible. If my AWS bills are any measure - then yes - the cost savings in electricity and computing resources are very significant. Also, developing and maintaining Python/C++ bindings for complex libraries is very painful and frustrating. I wrote Python bindings for years using boost::python and earlier Swig and keeping bindings working and dealing with the different memory management approaches of Python and C++... bleh - it's a nightmare. At the same time Python changed from version 2 to 3.x and libraries I depended on and my own Python code was being broken and becoming outdated in ways that I had no control over. It was like trying to build a house out of sand. I've only been using Common Lisp for the past 6 years - after three decades of writing in other languages including Basic, Pascal, Smalltalk, C, Fortran, Python, PHP, Forth, Prolog... Common Lisp feels great, it feels powerful and every function I write I know will compile and run in 20 years. Common Lisp has real macros (programs that write programs! implemented in one language), dynamic variables, generic functions, the Common Lisp Object System, conditions and restarts... There are many features that haven't made it into other languages. Common Lisp makes programming interesting again.

sk2020 6y ago
Would you indulge me with an OOM estimate of your hosting costs for this use case?

adwn 6y ago

> Given that most of the computationally expensive work in Python is usually offloaded to C extensions That only works if your application's hotspots are in a few, decoupled parts of your code – good examples are FFTs, data compression, or encryption. It doesn't work if you can't cleanly separate your hotspots from the rest of your logic. E.g., if you write a parser and analyzer for a programming language, what part do you want to offload to C? Even if you could identify a small part that takes up the majority of execution time, it would have a complex interface, and it would take a lot of work implementing and testing that interface.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]