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Calculus is absolutely essential for most science. However I think Calculus in High School is a bit ridiculous. If a student has reached that point they should

by foxyv 6y ago

Calculus is absolutely essential for most science. However I think Calculus in High School is a bit ridiculous. If a student has reached that point they should be transitioning to a middle college program where they can spend more time on the subject without burning out dealing with the High School hoop jumping.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> However I think Calculus in High School is a bit ridiculous. If a student has reached that point they should be transitioning to a middle college program where they can spend more time on the subject without burning out dealing with the High School hoop jumping. It's possible for a student to be advanced in math but not equally advanced in other fields; it's also possible for a student to be academically but not emotionally advanced; both of these may make it better for a student who is academically prepared for calculus to pursue it in high school rather than a post-secondary environment.
- pessimizer 6y ago
  College/University is easier than high school, and high school is no emotional safety bubble. High school is probably the most emotionally intense and punishing period of one's life in my opinion. School gets increasingly worse and worse from the first year until the last year of HS, and college is a relief.
- foxyv 6y ago
  High School is a time waster. It's designed to waste as much time as possible so that parents don't have to pay for child care. At the same time it's putting kids into extreme stress situations. Sitting in a classroom for hour long stretches, overcrowding, bullying, authoritarian discipline and arbitrary rules. 5 hours of lectures per day, 5 days a week with a vaguely humiliating hour of physical education which involves stripping in front of other people. If the kid is ready for college, then do it!
jhbadger 6y ago
"Most science" meaning physics. Calculus is of little use to either chemistry or biology. I took three semesters of it, and used very little of since despite majoring in biochemistry and getting a doctorate in microbiology. On the other hand, I wish I had studied more statistics. That's what is actually useful.
- kzrdude 6y ago
  Isn't calculus a prerequisite for statistics? Areas and density intuitions from calculus are very helpful.
  - ACow_Adonis 6y ago
    the intuitions from calculus are helpful for both statistics and economics and bits of other sciences: derivatives, higher order derivatives, min/max, discontinuities, integrals, etc. however, in my last 10 - 20 years I've never actually calculated an analytical derivative. I think there might be some economists somewhere who are doing so, but in my experience that's generally because they don't understand enough about computers or modelling, and they're just roting 30 year old techniques.
  - jhbadger 6y ago
    In curricula yes, you have to take calculus courses first. And yes, maybe in some esoteric proofs you need it. But in real, useful statistics, that is actually analyzing data to see if it is statistically significant, calculus plays no role at all.
- dwheeler 6y ago
  Calculus is the underpinning of statistics and probability. So you don't get rid of calculus that way :-). I think more discrete math - at least first-order predicate calculus - should be added to high school math. But that would not take a lot of extra time, you could sandwich that into other things.
- dbcooper 6y ago
  Nonsense. Physical chemistry and thermodynamics are underpinned by calculus. Try studying engineering without calculus ...
dbcooper 6y ago
Please don't keep pushing fundamental education to colleges to fix. It just makes everyone worse, and fundamentally changes the role of universities - they are not there for remedial learning!
- foxyv 6y ago
  Calculus is not remedial education. It is typically taught in the first 4 semesters of college. (Differential, Integral, Multivariable, DiffEq) English composition, World History, US History, all are part of a BS program. Why make a kid sit through 4 years of remedial junk in High School when he is already at a college level? But you are right, remedial stuff like grammar, writing, and Algebra should be taught at a Middle/High School. Kids shouldn't graduate until they are done with that. But keeping someone 4 years at a High School just to run out the clock on their DOE funding when they hit 18 is nuts when they are at a college level.

by foxyv 6y ago

dragonwriter 6y ago

> However I think Calculus in High School is a bit ridiculous. If a student has reached that point they should be transitioning to a middle college program where they can spend more time on the subject without burning out dealing with the High School hoop jumping. It's possible for a student to be advanced in math but not equally advanced in other fields; it's also possible for a student to be academically but not emotionally advanced; both of these may make it better for a student who is academically prepared for calculus to pursue it in high school rather than a post-secondary environment.

pessimizer 6y ago
College/University is easier than high school, and high school is no emotional safety bubble. High school is probably the most emotionally intense and punishing period of one's life in my opinion. School gets increasingly worse and worse from the first year until the last year of HS, and college is a relief.
foxyv 6y ago
High School is a time waster. It's designed to waste as much time as possible so that parents don't have to pay for child care. At the same time it's putting kids into extreme stress situations. Sitting in a classroom for hour long stretches, overcrowding, bullying, authoritarian discipline and arbitrary rules. 5 hours of lectures per day, 5 days a week with a vaguely humiliating hour of physical education which involves stripping in front of other people. If the kid is ready for college, then do it!

jhbadger 6y ago

"Most science" meaning physics. Calculus is of little use to either chemistry or biology. I took three semesters of it, and used very little of since despite majoring in biochemistry and getting a doctorate in microbiology. On the other hand, I wish I had studied more statistics. That's what is actually useful.

kzrdude 6y ago
Isn't calculus a prerequisite for statistics? Areas and density intuitions from calculus are very helpful.
- ACow_Adonis 6y ago
  the intuitions from calculus are helpful for both statistics and economics and bits of other sciences: derivatives, higher order derivatives, min/max, discontinuities, integrals, etc. however, in my last 10 - 20 years I've never actually calculated an analytical derivative. I think there might be some economists somewhere who are doing so, but in my experience that's generally because they don't understand enough about computers or modelling, and they're just roting 30 year old techniques.
- jhbadger 6y ago
  In curricula yes, you have to take calculus courses first. And yes, maybe in some esoteric proofs you need it. But in real, useful statistics, that is actually analyzing data to see if it is statistically significant, calculus plays no role at all.
dwheeler 6y ago
Calculus is the underpinning of statistics and probability. So you don't get rid of calculus that way :-). I think more discrete math - at least first-order predicate calculus - should be added to high school math. But that would not take a lot of extra time, you could sandwich that into other things.
dbcooper 6y ago
Nonsense. Physical chemistry and thermodynamics are underpinned by calculus. Try studying engineering without calculus ...

dbcooper 6y ago

Please don't keep pushing fundamental education to colleges to fix. It just makes everyone worse, and fundamentally changes the role of universities - they are not there for remedial learning!

foxyv 6y ago
Calculus is not remedial education. It is typically taught in the first 4 semesters of college. (Differential, Integral, Multivariable, DiffEq) English composition, World History, US History, all are part of a BS program. Why make a kid sit through 4 years of remedial junk in High School when he is already at a college level? But you are right, remedial stuff like grammar, writing, and Algebra should be taught at a Middle/High School. Kids shouldn't graduate until they are done with that. But keeping someone 4 years at a High School just to run out the clock on their DOE funding when they hit 18 is nuts when they are at a college level.