15 ms·

Swede here. > Yet without implementing any major controls, Weasel word "major". Everyone who can work from home has done so since April. I'm basically isolate

by boxed 6y ago

Swede here. > Yet without implementing any major controls, Weasel word "major". Everyone who can work from home has done so since April. I'm basically isolated at home all day. The difference is that it's voluntary because the government thinks we are adults. Turns out we are! > with significantly less social distancing among the population, Than what? And citation needed. I have cut down my physical interactions by crazy amounts and this is extremely common. > without significant mask usage, This is true. > the outbreak seems to have slowed substantially. The most vulnerable have died already if that's what you mean. Now there IS a good argument for Swedens approach being good for Sweden and that is that we have had lower than average total mortality a while now. Meaning probably that the deaths we saw were dominated by people who had their lives cut short by 6 months or less. "X dead" is an obvious crap number if you think about it for 1 second. The actual interesting number is how many years have the disease cut from people's lives. Seems like not a lot actually. We took a huge gamble on this entire thing though.

krona 6y ago
> it's voluntary because the government thinks we are adults. Or, a country of lonely conformists. Over half of households in Sweden (52 % of all households) were one person households in 2017, the highest in the EU by a considerable margin (Eurostat data.) Also, Swedes have extreme levels of social conformity, more comparable to Japan than even its Scandinavian neighbours. Not a good environment for a virus.
- guerrilla 6y ago
  Indeed, if you want to spread the virus to your neighbor here you'd have to catch them not avoiding you first.
ajmurmann 6y ago
It's easy to forget that Sweden also has a much stronger social system than the US. I vaguely recall reading that Sweden also expanded some compensation for people who stay home because they show want symptoms at all. Can you elaborate on that?
- Gwypaas 6y ago
  It used to be that you didn't get any sick income the first day to prevent frivolous usage, this was changed back in March. Now it is 80% for a year, you need a doctor's note after three weeks. This used to be one week but to limit the strain of the health services it was increased. If the company want one earlier they need to pay a private doctor to do it. You also get 80% of your income if your children younger than 12 get sick and you need to stay home to take care of them. Due to corona any respiratory illness is included in this, and it is a crime to go out in society if you have confirmed or serious suspicion of infection. (Infectious disease law)
  - vkou 6y ago
    > Due to corona any respiratory illness is included in this, and it is a crime to go out in society if you have confirmed or serious suspicion of infection. (Infectious disease law) So, what you are saying, is that compared to say, the US, Sweden has been subjected to a truly draconic lockdown. Edit: I'm not sure I understand the karmic sentiment. In the US, closing movie theatres and requiring patrons to wear masks was controversial. Being criminally charged for going outside would be considered tyranny - so it's a little odd to hear that Sweden is given as example of a less-locked down country.
    - pessimizer 6y ago
      > So, what you are saying, is that compared to say, the US, Sweden has been subjected to a truly draconic lockdown. Exactly. Coronavirus truthers point to Sweden only as an example of a country that avoided a catastrophe despite not instituting a lockdown, then change the subject when you talk about what Swedes actually did do that they are also not going to do. It fits under the standard argument "We don't need to do [X] when [Y] would work just as well. We're also not going to do [Y]."
    - boxed 6y ago
      People get criminally charged for gross bodily harm or intent to commit gross bodily harm. It's not "tyranny" to ban knowingly spreading a plague more than it's "tyranny" to knowingly kill someone.
29athrowaway 6y ago
It is my perception that Swedes don't enjoy agglomerations much. e.g.: the Swedish bus stop meme shows that social distancing has been the standard for years before COVID-19.
- dijit 6y ago
  Yet, Malmö- which is not as isolationist as Stockholm and has incredibly few cases. I think it’s something else. Probably the working from home has a large impact.
- beagle3 6y ago
  A Swedish colleague joked that soon they will be able to drop the recommended 2m social distancing ... and go back to their traditional 5m
- quickthrowman 6y ago
  That bus stop meme picture is from Finland, FWIW.
hogFeast 6y ago
I live in the UK. We had politicians who tried to appeal to reason, and they got shouted down in the media. The most popular politicians today are the ones who wanted to lockdown fastest. Everyone in care homes still died. We had to spend hundreds of billions to pay people through lockdown. People have still ended up getting infected. And (most) people are still avoiding out anyway, irregardless of lockdown. It is just chaos. The politicisation of this issue was totally catastrophic. There was right-wing and left-wing science, no-one could accept that some things are unclear, and anyone who opposed the "correct science" was a conspiracy theorist nutjob. I am glad that some places took another path though. I thought masks would be effective, where I am you are legally obliged to wear masks inside, and our rate of infection is higher than it was a few months ago...I was wrong. The UK won't learn from this (we would have locked down irregardless, I have had people tell me earnestly that they won't stop socialising, irregardless of other people's health...btw, these are not right-wing/freedom people...this was a lefty software developer who likes going to the pub...as a society, we deserve to suffer), other places hopefully will. My perception is that it wasn't a gamble for Sweden either, the guy in charge seems to have had experience with infectious diseases at the WTO..tbf, a lot of our people had experience in this area too (and specifically with coronaviruses/influenza)...maybe in terms of public/international opinion but...the UK took that path, it didn't work.
- EdwardDiego 6y ago
  Unfortunately your lockdown appeared to have been a case of closing the barn door after the horse has bolted - or in this case, after the horse is already widespread in the community. Feel sorry for you lot, you got the worst of both worlds through what appears to be confused leadership.

by boxed 6y ago

krona 6y ago

> it's voluntary because the government thinks we are adults. Or, a country of lonely conformists. Over half of households in Sweden (52 % of all households) were one person households in 2017, the highest in the EU by a considerable margin (Eurostat data.) Also, Swedes have extreme levels of social conformity, more comparable to Japan than even its Scandinavian neighbours. Not a good environment for a virus.

guerrilla 6y ago
Indeed, if you want to spread the virus to your neighbor here you'd have to catch them not avoiding you first.

ajmurmann 6y ago

It's easy to forget that Sweden also has a much stronger social system than the US. I vaguely recall reading that Sweden also expanded some compensation for people who stay home because they show want symptoms at all. Can you elaborate on that?

Gwypaas 6y ago
It used to be that you didn't get any sick income the first day to prevent frivolous usage, this was changed back in March. Now it is 80% for a year, you need a doctor's note after three weeks. This used to be one week but to limit the strain of the health services it was increased. If the company want one earlier they need to pay a private doctor to do it. You also get 80% of your income if your children younger than 12 get sick and you need to stay home to take care of them. Due to corona any respiratory illness is included in this, and it is a crime to go out in society if you have confirmed or serious suspicion of infection. (Infectious disease law)
- vkou 6y ago
  > Due to corona any respiratory illness is included in this, and it is a crime to go out in society if you have confirmed or serious suspicion of infection. (Infectious disease law) So, what you are saying, is that compared to say, the US, Sweden has been subjected to a truly draconic lockdown. Edit: I'm not sure I understand the karmic sentiment. In the US, closing movie theatres and requiring patrons to wear masks was controversial. Being criminally charged for going outside would be considered tyranny - so it's a little odd to hear that Sweden is given as example of a less-locked down country.
  - pessimizer 6y ago
    > So, what you are saying, is that compared to say, the US, Sweden has been subjected to a truly draconic lockdown. Exactly. Coronavirus truthers point to Sweden only as an example of a country that avoided a catastrophe despite not instituting a lockdown, then change the subject when you talk about what Swedes actually did do that they are also not going to do. It fits under the standard argument "We don't need to do [X] when [Y] would work just as well. We're also not going to do [Y]."
  - boxed 6y ago
    People get criminally charged for gross bodily harm or intent to commit gross bodily harm. It's not "tyranny" to ban knowingly spreading a plague more than it's "tyranny" to knowingly kill someone.

29athrowaway 6y ago

It is my perception that Swedes don't enjoy agglomerations much. e.g.: the Swedish bus stop meme shows that social distancing has been the standard for years before COVID-19.

dijit 6y ago
Yet, Malmö- which is not as isolationist as Stockholm and has incredibly few cases. I think it’s something else. Probably the working from home has a large impact.
beagle3 6y ago
A Swedish colleague joked that soon they will be able to drop the recommended 2m social distancing ... and go back to their traditional 5m
quickthrowman 6y ago
That bus stop meme picture is from Finland, FWIW.

hogFeast 6y ago

I live in the UK. We had politicians who tried to appeal to reason, and they got shouted down in the media. The most popular politicians today are the ones who wanted to lockdown fastest. Everyone in care homes still died. We had to spend hundreds of billions to pay people through lockdown. People have still ended up getting infected. And (most) people are still avoiding out anyway, irregardless of lockdown. It is just chaos. The politicisation of this issue was totally catastrophic. There was right-wing and left-wing science, no-one could accept that some things are unclear, and anyone who opposed the "correct science" was a conspiracy theorist nutjob. I am glad that some places took another path though. I thought masks would be effective, where I am you are legally obliged to wear masks inside, and our rate of infection is higher than it was a few months ago...I was wrong. The UK won't learn from this (we would have locked down irregardless, I have had people tell me earnestly that they won't stop socialising, irregardless of other people's health...btw, these are not right-wing/freedom people...this was a lefty software developer who likes going to the pub...as a society, we deserve to suffer), other places hopefully will. My perception is that it wasn't a gamble for Sweden either, the guy in charge seems to have had experience with infectious diseases at the WTO..tbf, a lot of our people had experience in this area too (and specifically with coronaviruses/influenza)...maybe in terms of public/international opinion but...the UK took that path, it didn't work.

EdwardDiego 6y ago
Unfortunately your lockdown appeared to have been a case of closing the barn door after the horse has bolted - or in this case, after the horse is already widespread in the community. Feel sorry for you lot, you got the worst of both worlds through what appears to be confused leadership.