6 ms·

How will Seattle respond to robotaxis?

Pfhreak 6y ago
Hopefully Seattle will have strong public housing, basic income, and other safety nets to support a basic quality of life for every resident. Then we won't have to worry about this for every new tech advancement that pushes workers out.
- maxharris 6y ago
  How will Seattle pay for it?
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    Taxes. Ideally progressive taxes. The tax burden of a wealthy person in Seattle is currently incredibly low. (Speaking as a wealthy person in Seattle who is shocked at how little I have to pay every year to support my local community.)
    - maxharris 6y ago
      What do you think should be done about the wealthy responding to those measures by leaving the city, or the state?
      - Pfhreak 6y ago
        Do you have data to suggest that will happen? People like to live and work in Seattle, just like they like to live and work in California and New York. Or Europe. Will some folks get grumpy about taxes and leave? Maybe, but I don't have any data to suggest that it will materially matter.
        maxharris 6y ago
        Let's suppose that in a couple of years, data emerges that demonstrates that this happens. What do you recommend should be done about it, assuming it were to happen? There is good reason to be concerned about this question, because a simple Google search reveals many articles on this topic: https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-york-municipalities-feel-budget-crunch-as-coronavirus-pandemic-squeezes-funding-11594027800 https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-york-municipalities-feel-bu... Do you believe that taking a wait-and-see approach is wise?
        Pfhreak 6y ago
        Generally I don't believe that hypothetical is likely. It's one thing to see a revenue shortfall due to covid, it's another thing to suggest that wealthy people will just leave. If you can find a case where the wealthy folks have left to avoid taxes and it made a material difference, I'm happy to engage. Historically, the only thing I can think of is White Flight, but in that case one of the driving forces was the spending of tax money on building housing and infrastructure for the wealthy outside of cities. (And there were many other explicitly segregationist policies in place at the time to prevent the less wealthy from going along with them.)
        triceratops 6y ago
        It happened in Atlas Shrugged so it's totally a real thing. /s
    - jiscariot 6y ago
      I'd encourage you to make a voluntary donation to the State of Washington Treasury's General Fund or one of about 750 account appropriations[2]. I'm sure there would be some that would help support your local community. [1]https://tre.wa.gov/wp-content/uploads/waStateDonationForm.pdf https://tre.wa.gov/wp-content/uploads/waStateDonationForm.pd... [2]https://www.ofm.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/legacy/policy/75.30.htm https://www.ofm.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/legacy/pol...
      - Pfhreak 6y ago
        I give a significant portion of my income to local community organizations to support education, housing, and social equity. However, I believe philanthropy is not a scalable solution to systemic issues. People tend to pay for causes that make them feel good, which doesn't line up with what actually needs to be solved. I strongly believe that we need to get everyone contributing to societal maintenance, rather than relying on people opting in.
        maxharris 6y ago
        What causes our systemic issues? And what role do you believe embedded growth obligations play in the institutions involved in those issues?
        Pfhreak 6y ago
        Big question. Fundamentally, having capital allows one to acquire more capital, generationally. The history here is long and complex. Over hundreds of years, we've seen a striation of incomes, wealth, and capital across the country. The lower ends of that income spectrum are dealing with difficult choices about whether to cut food, heating, housing, medicine, sanitation, childcare, etc. Low level crime is a symptom of people being squeezed too hard. So, let's dive a layer deeper: what causes inequal access to healthcare, housing, education, sanitation, etc.? Part of it is cultural -- people framing the question as, "Why should I give up some of my income so someone else doesn't have raw sewage pumped into their yard?" rather than, "What's the baseline experience we should all have, no matter what, and how much do I have to give up to ensure that?" Fundamentally, I think culturally, in the US, we prioritize "mine" too much over "ours", which leads to tight fists on improving conditions and addressing economic inequality, which leads to systemic problems in housing/food/education/etc., which leads to crime, drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. As for the second question, I think you are asking whether companies are obligated to grow their profits/income and how is that tied to these issues? I want to make sure I understand what you are asking before I try to answer. Thanks for asking good questions. We might not agree on the root causes here, or what to do about it, but at least this set of questions is a reasonable dive into things.
    - nickpp 6y ago
      What do you think it should be done about the chilling effect of those taxes? Talented graduates who select to join a different city instead of Seattle, a city perhaps less hungry for their hard worked money. Enthusiastic founders who never decide to start that startup anymore and rather get a job because why bother when others get to enjoy most of the fruits of your labor? Business never started, money never made, growth stunted. Is it worth to sacrifice the future so that politicians can add another checklist to their re-election campaign?
      - Pfhreak 6y ago
        > Talented employees who select to move to a different city instead, less hungry for their hard worked money. That's one framing. Another framing is that the taxes I pay were never "my" money to begin with. To answer your broader question, I'm not going to argue against a hypothetical. If you've seen places where the local area is a highly desirable place but whose economy is flagging because of high taxes, I'm happy to dive in more. But in general, people want to live in Seattle even if it means chipping in a little more. Founders want to start here because there's talent here.
        nickpp 6y ago
        > places where the local area is a highly desirable place but whose economy is flagging because of high taxes The whole of Europe, pretty much. Only desirable to refugees and migrants dreaming of that sweet sweet social security, while bleeding talent, entrepreneurs and startups to USA in droves. Europe chose a while ago stagnation over innovation and evolution and today is paying the price. > taxes I pay were never "my" money That simply cannot be true, considering that if I move to a different place that money end up in my bank account, mine!
        Pfhreak 6y ago
        > if I move to a different place that money end up in my bank account, mine! Reversing this argument -- moving to a place with higher taxes means that money isn't in your bank, not yours! > The whole of Europe, pretty much. Germany seems to be doing alright. Most of Europe rates highly on the IHDI. GDPs are growing in places like Sweden and France, despite a high tax rate.
  - debian_lover 6y ago
    They will have the feds print money and destroy the dollar. Coming to a neighborhood near you.

Hopefully Seattle will have strong public housing, basic income, and other safety nets to support a basic quality of life for every resident. Then we won't have to worry about this for every new tech advancement that pushes workers out.

maxharris 6y ago
How will Seattle pay for it?
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  Taxes. Ideally progressive taxes. The tax burden of a wealthy person in Seattle is currently incredibly low. (Speaking as a wealthy person in Seattle who is shocked at how little I have to pay every year to support my local community.)
  - maxharris 6y ago
    What do you think should be done about the wealthy responding to those measures by leaving the city, or the state?
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      Do you have data to suggest that will happen? People like to live and work in Seattle, just like they like to live and work in California and New York. Or Europe. Will some folks get grumpy about taxes and leave? Maybe, but I don't have any data to suggest that it will materially matter.
      - maxharris 6y ago
        Let's suppose that in a couple of years, data emerges that demonstrates that this happens. What do you recommend should be done about it, assuming it were to happen? There is good reason to be concerned about this question, because a simple Google search reveals many articles on this topic: https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-york-municipalities-feel-budget-crunch-as-coronavirus-pandemic-squeezes-funding-11594027800 https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-york-municipalities-feel-bu... Do you believe that taking a wait-and-see approach is wise?
        Pfhreak 6y ago
        Generally I don't believe that hypothetical is likely. It's one thing to see a revenue shortfall due to covid, it's another thing to suggest that wealthy people will just leave. If you can find a case where the wealthy folks have left to avoid taxes and it made a material difference, I'm happy to engage. Historically, the only thing I can think of is White Flight, but in that case one of the driving forces was the spending of tax money on building housing and infrastructure for the wealthy outside of cities. (And there were many other explicitly segregationist policies in place at the time to prevent the less wealthy from going along with them.)
      - triceratops 6y ago
        It happened in Atlas Shrugged so it's totally a real thing. /s
  - jiscariot 6y ago
    I'd encourage you to make a voluntary donation to the State of Washington Treasury's General Fund or one of about 750 account appropriations[2]. I'm sure there would be some that would help support your local community. [1]https://tre.wa.gov/wp-content/uploads/waStateDonationForm.pdf https://tre.wa.gov/wp-content/uploads/waStateDonationForm.pd... [2]https://www.ofm.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/legacy/policy/75.30.htm https://www.ofm.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/legacy/pol...
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      I give a significant portion of my income to local community organizations to support education, housing, and social equity. However, I believe philanthropy is not a scalable solution to systemic issues. People tend to pay for causes that make them feel good, which doesn't line up with what actually needs to be solved. I strongly believe that we need to get everyone contributing to societal maintenance, rather than relying on people opting in.
      - maxharris 6y ago
        What causes our systemic issues? And what role do you believe embedded growth obligations play in the institutions involved in those issues?
        Pfhreak 6y ago
        Big question. Fundamentally, having capital allows one to acquire more capital, generationally. The history here is long and complex. Over hundreds of years, we've seen a striation of incomes, wealth, and capital across the country. The lower ends of that income spectrum are dealing with difficult choices about whether to cut food, heating, housing, medicine, sanitation, childcare, etc. Low level crime is a symptom of people being squeezed too hard. So, let's dive a layer deeper: what causes inequal access to healthcare, housing, education, sanitation, etc.? Part of it is cultural -- people framing the question as, "Why should I give up some of my income so someone else doesn't have raw sewage pumped into their yard?" rather than, "What's the baseline experience we should all have, no matter what, and how much do I have to give up to ensure that?" Fundamentally, I think culturally, in the US, we prioritize "mine" too much over "ours", which leads to tight fists on improving conditions and addressing economic inequality, which leads to systemic problems in housing/food/education/etc., which leads to crime, drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. As for the second question, I think you are asking whether companies are obligated to grow their profits/income and how is that tied to these issues? I want to make sure I understand what you are asking before I try to answer. Thanks for asking good questions. We might not agree on the root causes here, or what to do about it, but at least this set of questions is a reasonable dive into things.
  - nickpp 6y ago
    What do you think it should be done about the chilling effect of those taxes? Talented graduates who select to join a different city instead of Seattle, a city perhaps less hungry for their hard worked money. Enthusiastic founders who never decide to start that startup anymore and rather get a job because why bother when others get to enjoy most of the fruits of your labor? Business never started, money never made, growth stunted. Is it worth to sacrifice the future so that politicians can add another checklist to their re-election campaign?
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      > Talented employees who select to move to a different city instead, less hungry for their hard worked money. That's one framing. Another framing is that the taxes I pay were never "my" money to begin with. To answer your broader question, I'm not going to argue against a hypothetical. If you've seen places where the local area is a highly desirable place but whose economy is flagging because of high taxes, I'm happy to dive in more. But in general, people want to live in Seattle even if it means chipping in a little more. Founders want to start here because there's talent here.
      - nickpp 6y ago
        > places where the local area is a highly desirable place but whose economy is flagging because of high taxes The whole of Europe, pretty much. Only desirable to refugees and migrants dreaming of that sweet sweet social security, while bleeding talent, entrepreneurs and startups to USA in droves. Europe chose a while ago stagnation over innovation and evolution and today is paying the price. > taxes I pay were never "my" money That simply cannot be true, considering that if I move to a different place that money end up in my bank account, mine!
        Pfhreak 6y ago
        > if I move to a different place that money end up in my bank account, mine! Reversing this argument -- moving to a place with higher taxes means that money isn't in your bank, not yours! > The whole of Europe, pretty much. Germany seems to be doing alright. Most of Europe rates highly on the IHDI. GDPs are growing in places like Sweden and France, despite a high tax rate.
- debian_lover 6y ago
  They will have the feds print money and destroy the dollar. Coming to a neighborhood near you.