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Okay. I substitute "Honest Achmed" with "N-word Jim's Southern Signed Certificates". This shouldn't be racist at all, (edit: or if it is racist, it shouldn't ma

Okay. I substitute "Honest Achmed" with "N-word Jim's Southern Signed Certificates". This shouldn't be racist at all, (edit: or if it is racist, it shouldn't matter) since there's a point. edit: There's a reason why it's Achmed, and not "Honest Matthew" or "Honest James".

dasil003 16y ago
Where's the racial slur in Honest Achmed?
- jessedhillon 16y ago
  There doesn't need to be one for it to be racist. pnathan seemed to be saying that either it wasn't racist, or it didn't matter that it was racist, because there was a point. My is that whether or not that's true is immaterial (and demonstrably false): the person created this fictional Honest Achmed -- a play on the stereotype of Arabs as untrustworthy in business dealings. He further went on to capitalize on a number of other stereotypes about Arabs as he presented his completed app. If I wrote the same thing, but from the perspective of the fictional Jim I mentioned above, I don't think you would have any question about how racist it was. If I littered my post with a bunch of stereotypes about black Americans, don't you think that would be racist?
  - pnathan 16y ago
    For all I care, you can use pnathan jessedhillon Mario Luigi Luke Obiwan Matt Maria Adolf Billy the Vampire and the point would be the same: CA process is borked to a hilarious point.
  - ay 16y ago
    "a play on the stereotype" - this makes it humorous, not racist. Please, please, please, oh dear people. Try to be a little bit less busy with the showdown maquillage of political correctness and overthinking. Putting variables X, Y, Z instead of any real references in this passage would have made it politically correct, but would sterilize the point away from it. The stereotypes are useful in being able to predictably and easily recreate a vivid image that can give the backdrop for the core message. This all has nothing to do with Arabs and everything to do with certificates. Those particularly concerned are welcome recreate the same scenario using the image of the "new-russian" Ivan, a representative of the Russian Business Investment Network.
    - jessedhillon 16y ago
      > "a play on the stereotype" - this makes it humorous, not racist. It makes it humor based on a racial stereotype. --- This comment is easy to make when you aren't the one who is painted by the stereotypes. If you have to contend with people's pre-existing impressions of you -- one that is derived from these stereotypes -- you might not be dismissive of them. Only someone who is not negatively affected by racial stereotypes would have the audacity to claim that complaints over them are merely for show, or political correctness. Try belonging to a race that is targeted for violence by people who subscribe to these stereotypes. Or try being a decent human and consider that not everyone enjoys the a priori assumption of competence and individuality that you are afforded. Other people have to contend with the a priori assumption of being Achmed.
      - ay 16y ago
        You have a valid point. I am sorry. The second question even respectable strangers tend to ask me after "where you are from ?" is "you must be really into drinking vodka ?", so the effect of stereotypes on me is mostly amusement. Another example is my wife who is an entrepreneur, and tells plenty of stories of how it is to be a blond woman - because the other party a-priori tends to think of usual "blonde" stereotypes. She also says this lasts for approximately 5 first minutes into the conversation and then she gains more respect than if she'd be a man in a suite, we speculated. This "positive" view of stereotypes made me skewed, I think, so again - excuse me. The people who seriously and blindly apply the stereotypes deserve more education than they were able to get. And those who feel the impact of those people taking the stereotypes seriously, do deserve to be in a more intelligent company too - it's unfortunate if they can not rectify that by changing the circle of acquaintances.
        jessedhillon 16y ago
        Thank you
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
  - Maci 16y ago
    Given the context no, the material presented is clearly made in jest and the point made remains the same. This could've easily been say "P-Diddy's Certificate and Ho Emporium", "certificats pour les snobs par francois" or "Jenkins Tea, Crumpets and Certs". If it wasn't for stereotyping we'd loose a valuable source of comedy all over the world.
    - jessedhillon 16y ago
      > This could've easily been say "P-Diddy's Certificate and Ho Emporium", "certificats pour les snobs par francois" or "Jenkins Tea, Crumpets and Certs". The assumption here is that perpetuating English and French stereotypes is morally equivalent to doing the same to black American. Apart from the fact that being known for drinking tea and eating biscuits is not nearly as embarrassing or damaging as being thought of as a pimp or ho, there's another problem here: every non-white person can hold this assumption about French and English people and the French and English will not have a problem getting around in society. The same is not true with your P-Diddy example, if believed by every non-black person. > If it wasn't for stereotyping we'd loose a valuable source of comedy all over the world. This is tantamount to saying "I have a right to perpetuate racially-based stereotypes, despite any claimed or real negative effect they have, because my ability to be funny depends on it."
      - Maci 16y ago
        > The assumption here is that perpetuating English and French stereotypes is morally equivalent to doing the same to black American. But it is, that is the essence of a stereotype. If we take out the ethnicity factor and go into personalities your argument is the same as saying that it is embarrassing and damaging for Librarians to be labelled as boring and strict, for Managers to be labelled as conniving bastards and idiots, for Artists to be labelled as always high on drugs, for Nerds to be labelled as outcasts and acne ridden. I consider your argument flawed in that stereotyping will always have an element of "there's some truth in your fiction and some fiction in your truth". Fiction and Fact are two completely different things. It's a good thing many people appreciate fact. > This is tantamount to saying "I have a right to perpetuate racially-based stereotypes, despite any claimed or real negative effect they have, because my ability to be funny depends on it." Not just my ability but also that of the Film Industry, TV Productions, Stage Plays, Books, Music, which all continue to use any form of stereotyping for good or bad.
  - dreyfiz 16y ago
    Thanks for your sisyphean efforts in explaining to this unsympathetic audience why sexing up your bug report with racist caricatures is simply not cool, jessedhillon.
    - jessedhillon 16y ago
      Generally, the people who entertain these stereotypes are those who aren't affected negatively by any stereotypes. It's part of what is sometimes referred to in sociology as the folk theory of racism, which is built on three tenets: 1) race is a significant biological fact, whereas most sociologists agree that it is entirely a political fact 2) racism only exists where people specifically intend to be racist, i.e. that it is entirely a manifestation of individual belief, and 3) that racism is a natural and unavoidable result of the human condition. You can see the manifestations of this theory on this thread, especially points 2 and 3. Consider the responses here to the effect that because there was a greater point about certificate authorities being made (and thus no specific racist intent exists) no racism is present. And also consider the responses to the effect that stereotypes are a necessary part of humor, without which apparently no effective communication would be possible. It's practically a claim to the right to stereotype other races. In another response, a commenter points out that there also exist stereotypes of English and French people, as though all stereotypes are morally equivalent.
- runjake 16y ago
  In the US, at least, "Achmed" is a commonly-used colloquial name to disparagingly describe an Arab, similar to "Leroy" for a black person. An example: "I wish Achmed over there would climb down from his camel and fetch me a Slurpee". So some might take offense to its use.
  - dreyfiz 16y ago
    From an Arab-American: I found it racist and offensive. Anyone who says "Achmed" is probably saying something racist, because "Achmed" isn’t even an Arabic name. "Ahmad" is.
    - gojomo 16y ago
      Or perhaps, they're subtly satirizing someone clumsily pretending to be Arabic who doesn't even know enough to choose a plausible name. Honest Achmed's is a false-flag operation! I've noticed that getting offended about stereotypes and word choice is a very American thing to do – and also shared with other cosmopolitan English-speaking areas. For most groups X, "X-Americans" are more likely to take offense than plain X. So you may see foreigners speaking about stereotypes – those applying to their own groups or others, in jest or debate – with a level of frankness that triggers the 'racist! must! object!' reaction in acculturated Americans/anglophones. Of course, YMMV.
      - jessedhillon 16y ago
        This is an amazing discovery. You mean to say that when Arabs are with each other, in their own country, they speak to each other frankly, humorously and in broad generalizations about their own culture -- while going about their day, interacting with Arab society, as if they're doing nothing wrong? Well then, I can't possibly see how that's different from a proportionally small group of Arabs in English-speaking countries being generalized about, made fun of, or being reduced to caricatures by the much larger non-Arab population -- who then accept and act upon those stereotypes when they interact with Arabs (or people resembling). Sir, have you documented your observations? The world of sociology will surely be shaken by this!
- ChuckMcM 16y ago
  Background [1] its the "Achmed the dead terrorist" which was a near meme a while ago. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

dasil003 16y ago

Where's the racial slur in Honest Achmed?

jessedhillon 16y ago
There doesn't need to be one for it to be racist. pnathan seemed to be saying that either it wasn't racist, or it didn't matter that it was racist, because there was a point. My is that whether or not that's true is immaterial (and demonstrably false): the person created this fictional Honest Achmed -- a play on the stereotype of Arabs as untrustworthy in business dealings. He further went on to capitalize on a number of other stereotypes about Arabs as he presented his completed app. If I wrote the same thing, but from the perspective of the fictional Jim I mentioned above, I don't think you would have any question about how racist it was. If I littered my post with a bunch of stereotypes about black Americans, don't you think that would be racist?
- pnathan 16y ago
  For all I care, you can use pnathan jessedhillon Mario Luigi Luke Obiwan Matt Maria Adolf Billy the Vampire and the point would be the same: CA process is borked to a hilarious point.
- ay 16y ago
  "a play on the stereotype" - this makes it humorous, not racist. Please, please, please, oh dear people. Try to be a little bit less busy with the showdown maquillage of political correctness and overthinking. Putting variables X, Y, Z instead of any real references in this passage would have made it politically correct, but would sterilize the point away from it. The stereotypes are useful in being able to predictably and easily recreate a vivid image that can give the backdrop for the core message. This all has nothing to do with Arabs and everything to do with certificates. Those particularly concerned are welcome recreate the same scenario using the image of the "new-russian" Ivan, a representative of the Russian Business Investment Network.
  - jessedhillon 16y ago
    > "a play on the stereotype" - this makes it humorous, not racist. It makes it humor based on a racial stereotype. --- This comment is easy to make when you aren't the one who is painted by the stereotypes. If you have to contend with people's pre-existing impressions of you -- one that is derived from these stereotypes -- you might not be dismissive of them. Only someone who is not negatively affected by racial stereotypes would have the audacity to claim that complaints over them are merely for show, or political correctness. Try belonging to a race that is targeted for violence by people who subscribe to these stereotypes. Or try being a decent human and consider that not everyone enjoys the a priori assumption of competence and individuality that you are afforded. Other people have to contend with the a priori assumption of being Achmed.
    - ay 16y ago
      You have a valid point. I am sorry. The second question even respectable strangers tend to ask me after "where you are from ?" is "you must be really into drinking vodka ?", so the effect of stereotypes on me is mostly amusement. Another example is my wife who is an entrepreneur, and tells plenty of stories of how it is to be a blond woman - because the other party a-priori tends to think of usual "blonde" stereotypes. She also says this lasts for approximately 5 first minutes into the conversation and then she gains more respect than if she'd be a man in a suite, we speculated. This "positive" view of stereotypes made me skewed, I think, so again - excuse me. The people who seriously and blindly apply the stereotypes deserve more education than they were able to get. And those who feel the impact of those people taking the stereotypes seriously, do deserve to be in a more intelligent company too - it's unfortunate if they can not rectify that by changing the circle of acquaintances.
      - jessedhillon 16y ago
        Thank you
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
- Maci 16y ago
  Given the context no, the material presented is clearly made in jest and the point made remains the same. This could've easily been say "P-Diddy's Certificate and Ho Emporium", "certificats pour les snobs par francois" or "Jenkins Tea, Crumpets and Certs". If it wasn't for stereotyping we'd loose a valuable source of comedy all over the world.
  - jessedhillon 16y ago
    > This could've easily been say "P-Diddy's Certificate and Ho Emporium", "certificats pour les snobs par francois" or "Jenkins Tea, Crumpets and Certs". The assumption here is that perpetuating English and French stereotypes is morally equivalent to doing the same to black American. Apart from the fact that being known for drinking tea and eating biscuits is not nearly as embarrassing or damaging as being thought of as a pimp or ho, there's another problem here: every non-white person can hold this assumption about French and English people and the French and English will not have a problem getting around in society. The same is not true with your P-Diddy example, if believed by every non-black person. > If it wasn't for stereotyping we'd loose a valuable source of comedy all over the world. This is tantamount to saying "I have a right to perpetuate racially-based stereotypes, despite any claimed or real negative effect they have, because my ability to be funny depends on it."
    - Maci 16y ago
      > The assumption here is that perpetuating English and French stereotypes is morally equivalent to doing the same to black American. But it is, that is the essence of a stereotype. If we take out the ethnicity factor and go into personalities your argument is the same as saying that it is embarrassing and damaging for Librarians to be labelled as boring and strict, for Managers to be labelled as conniving bastards and idiots, for Artists to be labelled as always high on drugs, for Nerds to be labelled as outcasts and acne ridden. I consider your argument flawed in that stereotyping will always have an element of "there's some truth in your fiction and some fiction in your truth". Fiction and Fact are two completely different things. It's a good thing many people appreciate fact. > This is tantamount to saying "I have a right to perpetuate racially-based stereotypes, despite any claimed or real negative effect they have, because my ability to be funny depends on it." Not just my ability but also that of the Film Industry, TV Productions, Stage Plays, Books, Music, which all continue to use any form of stereotyping for good or bad.
- dreyfiz 16y ago
  Thanks for your sisyphean efforts in explaining to this unsympathetic audience why sexing up your bug report with racist caricatures is simply not cool, jessedhillon.
  - jessedhillon 16y ago
    Generally, the people who entertain these stereotypes are those who aren't affected negatively by any stereotypes. It's part of what is sometimes referred to in sociology as the folk theory of racism, which is built on three tenets: 1) race is a significant biological fact, whereas most sociologists agree that it is entirely a political fact 2) racism only exists where people specifically intend to be racist, i.e. that it is entirely a manifestation of individual belief, and 3) that racism is a natural and unavoidable result of the human condition. You can see the manifestations of this theory on this thread, especially points 2 and 3. Consider the responses here to the effect that because there was a greater point about certificate authorities being made (and thus no specific racist intent exists) no racism is present. And also consider the responses to the effect that stereotypes are a necessary part of humor, without which apparently no effective communication would be possible. It's practically a claim to the right to stereotype other races. In another response, a commenter points out that there also exist stereotypes of English and French people, as though all stereotypes are morally equivalent.
runjake 16y ago
In the US, at least, "Achmed" is a commonly-used colloquial name to disparagingly describe an Arab, similar to "Leroy" for a black person. An example: "I wish Achmed over there would climb down from his camel and fetch me a Slurpee". So some might take offense to its use.
- dreyfiz 16y ago
  From an Arab-American: I found it racist and offensive. Anyone who says "Achmed" is probably saying something racist, because "Achmed" isn’t even an Arabic name. "Ahmad" is.
  - gojomo 16y ago
    Or perhaps, they're subtly satirizing someone clumsily pretending to be Arabic who doesn't even know enough to choose a plausible name. Honest Achmed's is a false-flag operation! I've noticed that getting offended about stereotypes and word choice is a very American thing to do – and also shared with other cosmopolitan English-speaking areas. For most groups X, "X-Americans" are more likely to take offense than plain X. So you may see foreigners speaking about stereotypes – those applying to their own groups or others, in jest or debate – with a level of frankness that triggers the 'racist! must! object!' reaction in acculturated Americans/anglophones. Of course, YMMV.
    - jessedhillon 16y ago
      This is an amazing discovery. You mean to say that when Arabs are with each other, in their own country, they speak to each other frankly, humorously and in broad generalizations about their own culture -- while going about their day, interacting with Arab society, as if they're doing nothing wrong? Well then, I can't possibly see how that's different from a proportionally small group of Arabs in English-speaking countries being generalized about, made fun of, or being reduced to caricatures by the much larger non-Arab population -- who then accept and act upon those stereotypes when they interact with Arabs (or people resembling). Sir, have you documented your observations? The world of sociology will surely be shaken by this!
ChuckMcM 16y ago
Background [1] its the "Achmed the dead terrorist" which was a near meme a while ago. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]