5 ms·

Show them by example how to be skeptical without accusing people of lying, and mention often the many reasons why people say things that might not be completely

Show them by example how to be skeptical without accusing people of lying, and mention often the many reasons why people say things that might not be completely true. Also, you need to make sure you yourself don't lie to them. A lot of parents still teach their kids to believe in Santa Claus. I know this is one of those cultural sacred cows, but I strongly think this should not be done. Kids need to be able to trust their parents and caregivers to a higher degree than the rest of society. I've done some formal "activities" with them in homeschooling, like sorting "real" vs. "not real," but even I don't think those are as good as leading by example.

circlefavshape 6y ago
I don't agree about Santa Claus fwiw. This is culture-specific, but here (Ireland) he's an integral part of Christmas, and of the excitement about Christmas that kids experience. Santa Claus is the only lie I've ever consciously told my kids. By doing so I've given them access to a great deal of joy and fun, both individual and communal. Should I have deprived them of that because I wanted be absolutely consistent, or to feel virtuous?
- InvaderFizz 6y ago
  This will end up being a personal decision that each parent makes. Much like the previous commenter, my wife and I made a conscious decision to separate myth from fact. Everything fictional is in "stories." I never want to be in the position where I consciously lie to my son, so Santa Claus is very clearly a story. That said, we can do all sorts of fun imaginative things with story characters because we know they are not real. This allows us to have the magic of Santa, without eventually having a large breach of trust.
  - Izkata 6y ago
    > This will end up being a personal decision that each parent makes. And because of that I want to add how my parents did it, which was kind of along the lines of "teaching children to think": They kept up the myth until we started questioning it, turning it into a sort of rite of passage. I figured it out in 2nd grade, age 7 or 8, right at the point OP is asking about.
  - circlefavshape 6y ago
    You and your son can do fun imaginative things, but I suspect he will not be able to fully share in the fantasy world that other kids who believe in Santa inhabit. But that's fine, it's your decision - parenthood (like everything) is all about tradeoffs like this
  - riffraff 6y ago
    > I never want to be in the position where I consciously lie to my son, so Santa Claus is very clearly a story. I find this interesting: do you believe there is something intrinsically bad in the lies? Normally, I would think they lead to lack of trust, but I don't seem to remember children losing trust in their parents when they discovered _they_ are really Santa Claus. I mean, it seems to me that not all un-truths are created equal.
    - big_curses 6y ago
      I'm not the person you asked, but I could see there being harm in lying to children about how reality works. When children are first growing up, they have no clue about the nature of reality, of what is and is not possible, but their brains are constantly gobbling up data on what the world is like. From this, one forms concepts of how things relate to each other. Ideally as they do this, there are no contradictions between their concepts, or they're worked out over time, but in lying to a child and feeding them this false information, you are introducing contradictions into their concepts and distorting their view of reality. And one's view of reality directly relates to their ability to interact with it in a self-beneficial way. Now I can't say that this will actually have much of an effect, like I said, we can naturally work out these contradictions over time, but I think this is why one should not lie to children in general. Like you say, not all untruths are created equal. It could be quite easy for them to fix their concepts once they realize it is a lie, but perhaps it could have some lingering effects. I can't say. I'm not a psychologist and each individual, and their mind, is different.
- andi999 6y ago
  No easter bunny for your kids?
  - circlefavshape 6y ago
    We don't really have easter bunny in Ireland
    - andi999 6y ago
      Ahh. Didnt know. So what about st patrick driving out the snakes?
      - circlefavshape 6y ago
        haha - we have st. patrick's day obvs, with various traditions associated with it, but the snake myth is not something anyone really subscribes to or cares about
natmaka 6y ago
Santa Claus may be 'intellectually' useful starting from the instant the kid learns that is is a myth, because this may teach him that seeing everybody apparently believe in something doesn't preclude that, in fact, nearly nobody does. This may be of paramount importance when it comes to forming a critical mind. Moreover any human group is built upon myths.
- tboyd47 6y ago
  Critical thinking is a lot harder than just saying, "Don't believe other people." You have to teach that people may be trustworthy in one area, but not in another. You have to teach when you can take a statement on face value. You have to teach how to be skeptical of your own judgments and defer to others sometimes. You may also teach them how to spot liars. These things require time to understand and I don't see that happening if you sabotage the process by openly betraying them in a huge way early on.
  - natmaka 6y ago
    > Critical thinking is a lot harder than just saying, "Don't believe other people." Indeed, and I didn't write that the Santa Claus myth is sufficient on this behalf, but that it may help. Are you rejecting anything but a perfect (simple and exhaustive) way to teach critical thinking? I never crossed one, and doubt it exists for any complex philosophical asset. Refusing any other way exposes to the 'perfect solution fallacy'. > if you sabotage the process by openly betraying them in a huge way early on. I doubt kids learning that Santa Claus is a myth feel betrayed, and never perceived it (I was born in 1967 and have a daughter). The SC myth is well-built because when discovering its nature a kid understands that the lie is innocuous and even pleasant (gifts, gatherings...), and therefore not really a 'betraying'. He can then proceed to other conclusions about intents, the way he forms his own beliefs... I'm not fond of the SC myth nor do I practice it, however I try to be objective (this is part of critical thinking!).
EvanAnderson 6y ago
My wife and I agreed to be rigorously honest with our daughter. When "Santa" came up I was initially very uncomfortable with the lie. After discussing it with my wife we opted to go on with the lie under the conditions that it not be used for any kind of negative reinforcement-- none of the "Santa is watching you..." kind of stuff-- and that the "reveal" needed to be handled appropriately. When she does deduce the lie the plan is to explain to her as such: - It's a tradition that is passed down to bring joy to children. It allows parents to give gifts in a way that carries no expectation of thanks or praise. - She is now in on the "secret". It's her responsibility to guard the secret the same way her parents did before her. She knows what joy it brought to her and she shouldn't spoil that joy for others. - We do not lie to her, as a rule. We took this very seriously and thought hard about it. We decided the joy it would bring to her, and to the people she might one day be "Santa" for, was worth betraying her trust in this case. I still don't feel great about it, but I can live w/ myself. The little girl is 7 right now. She has said stuff like "I think Santa is really you and Mom". She also questions that conclusion, though, because because she says, effectively, that she doesn't have evidence for it. (I need talk about about Occam's razor and the idea that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence... >smile<)
- ravi-delia 6y ago
  It's funny, my parents did exactly the same thing and while I enjoyed playing along I can't recall ever believing a word of it. I'm not sure how my gut so quickly got to the truth. Maybe people deep down follow Occam's razor, though more likely I just got it by osmosis. To tell you the truth, I think back to that when I question my gut to this day. I'm thankful my parents never lied to me outside of it, but the wonderful thing about Santa is that everyone is in on the conspiracy, so if you can see past it you'll only ever be more confident in the truth when you find it, without taking it for granted. If it means anything from a random person on hacker news, I benefited from being told that Santa existed, and from the sound of it your daughter will too.
- kirillzubovsky 6y ago
  LOL. My mom was visiting us when my 5 year old asked about Santa. I explained with a stone cold face that Santa isn't real, presents come from mom and dad, and instead of waiting for Xmas we just get her things when she needs them, and that's why she didn't get anything for Xmas while her friends did. My mom was petrified, but my daughter didn't seem to care. Kids are really okay with adult stuff, there is more than one way to sparkle delight in their life, and it doesn't have to be Santa (imo).
rlonn 6y ago
I beg to differ about the lying. Do lie about unimportant things, let them try and figure out the lie, then confess (regardless of whether they figured it out or not). It becomes like a game, and if you do it right, in a lighthearted way, they will also trust you when it counts.
- tboyd47 6y ago
  Wouldn't that also teach them to lie to you about things they consider "unimportant"?
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
We told our kids that Santa was a pretend game that adults play. But, um, I don't think we took the same tack with the Tooth Fairy. We told our kids that the Tooth Fairy recycled teeth - when they fell out of kids' mouths, the Tooth Fairy took them and gave them to babies that were just getting their teeth. So I guess I'm a hypocrite :-(

circlefavshape 6y ago

I don't agree about Santa Claus fwiw. This is culture-specific, but here (Ireland) he's an integral part of Christmas, and of the excitement about Christmas that kids experience. Santa Claus is the only lie I've ever consciously told my kids. By doing so I've given them access to a great deal of joy and fun, both individual and communal. Should I have deprived them of that because I wanted be absolutely consistent, or to feel virtuous?

InvaderFizz 6y ago
This will end up being a personal decision that each parent makes. Much like the previous commenter, my wife and I made a conscious decision to separate myth from fact. Everything fictional is in "stories." I never want to be in the position where I consciously lie to my son, so Santa Claus is very clearly a story. That said, we can do all sorts of fun imaginative things with story characters because we know they are not real. This allows us to have the magic of Santa, without eventually having a large breach of trust.
- Izkata 6y ago
  > This will end up being a personal decision that each parent makes. And because of that I want to add how my parents did it, which was kind of along the lines of "teaching children to think": They kept up the myth until we started questioning it, turning it into a sort of rite of passage. I figured it out in 2nd grade, age 7 or 8, right at the point OP is asking about.
- circlefavshape 6y ago
  You and your son can do fun imaginative things, but I suspect he will not be able to fully share in the fantasy world that other kids who believe in Santa inhabit. But that's fine, it's your decision - parenthood (like everything) is all about tradeoffs like this
- riffraff 6y ago
  > I never want to be in the position where I consciously lie to my son, so Santa Claus is very clearly a story. I find this interesting: do you believe there is something intrinsically bad in the lies? Normally, I would think they lead to lack of trust, but I don't seem to remember children losing trust in their parents when they discovered _they_ are really Santa Claus. I mean, it seems to me that not all un-truths are created equal.
  - big_curses 6y ago
    I'm not the person you asked, but I could see there being harm in lying to children about how reality works. When children are first growing up, they have no clue about the nature of reality, of what is and is not possible, but their brains are constantly gobbling up data on what the world is like. From this, one forms concepts of how things relate to each other. Ideally as they do this, there are no contradictions between their concepts, or they're worked out over time, but in lying to a child and feeding them this false information, you are introducing contradictions into their concepts and distorting their view of reality. And one's view of reality directly relates to their ability to interact with it in a self-beneficial way. Now I can't say that this will actually have much of an effect, like I said, we can naturally work out these contradictions over time, but I think this is why one should not lie to children in general. Like you say, not all untruths are created equal. It could be quite easy for them to fix their concepts once they realize it is a lie, but perhaps it could have some lingering effects. I can't say. I'm not a psychologist and each individual, and their mind, is different.
andi999 6y ago
No easter bunny for your kids?
- circlefavshape 6y ago
  We don't really have easter bunny in Ireland
  - andi999 6y ago
    Ahh. Didnt know. So what about st patrick driving out the snakes?
    - circlefavshape 6y ago
      haha - we have st. patrick's day obvs, with various traditions associated with it, but the snake myth is not something anyone really subscribes to or cares about

natmaka 6y ago

Santa Claus may be 'intellectually' useful starting from the instant the kid learns that is is a myth, because this may teach him that seeing everybody apparently believe in something doesn't preclude that, in fact, nearly nobody does. This may be of paramount importance when it comes to forming a critical mind. Moreover any human group is built upon myths.

tboyd47 6y ago
Critical thinking is a lot harder than just saying, "Don't believe other people." You have to teach that people may be trustworthy in one area, but not in another. You have to teach when you can take a statement on face value. You have to teach how to be skeptical of your own judgments and defer to others sometimes. You may also teach them how to spot liars. These things require time to understand and I don't see that happening if you sabotage the process by openly betraying them in a huge way early on.
- natmaka 6y ago
  > Critical thinking is a lot harder than just saying, "Don't believe other people." Indeed, and I didn't write that the Santa Claus myth is sufficient on this behalf, but that it may help. Are you rejecting anything but a perfect (simple and exhaustive) way to teach critical thinking? I never crossed one, and doubt it exists for any complex philosophical asset. Refusing any other way exposes to the 'perfect solution fallacy'. > if you sabotage the process by openly betraying them in a huge way early on. I doubt kids learning that Santa Claus is a myth feel betrayed, and never perceived it (I was born in 1967 and have a daughter). The SC myth is well-built because when discovering its nature a kid understands that the lie is innocuous and even pleasant (gifts, gatherings...), and therefore not really a 'betraying'. He can then proceed to other conclusions about intents, the way he forms his own beliefs... I'm not fond of the SC myth nor do I practice it, however I try to be objective (this is part of critical thinking!).

EvanAnderson 6y ago

My wife and I agreed to be rigorously honest with our daughter. When "Santa" came up I was initially very uncomfortable with the lie. After discussing it with my wife we opted to go on with the lie under the conditions that it not be used for any kind of negative reinforcement-- none of the "Santa is watching you..." kind of stuff-- and that the "reveal" needed to be handled appropriately. When she does deduce the lie the plan is to explain to her as such: - It's a tradition that is passed down to bring joy to children. It allows parents to give gifts in a way that carries no expectation of thanks or praise. - She is now in on the "secret". It's her responsibility to guard the secret the same way her parents did before her. She knows what joy it brought to her and she shouldn't spoil that joy for others. - We do not lie to her, as a rule. We took this very seriously and thought hard about it. We decided the joy it would bring to her, and to the people she might one day be "Santa" for, was worth betraying her trust in this case. I still don't feel great about it, but I can live w/ myself. The little girl is 7 right now. She has said stuff like "I think Santa is really you and Mom". She also questions that conclusion, though, because because she says, effectively, that she doesn't have evidence for it. (I need talk about about Occam's razor and the idea that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence... >smile<)

ravi-delia 6y ago
It's funny, my parents did exactly the same thing and while I enjoyed playing along I can't recall ever believing a word of it. I'm not sure how my gut so quickly got to the truth. Maybe people deep down follow Occam's razor, though more likely I just got it by osmosis. To tell you the truth, I think back to that when I question my gut to this day. I'm thankful my parents never lied to me outside of it, but the wonderful thing about Santa is that everyone is in on the conspiracy, so if you can see past it you'll only ever be more confident in the truth when you find it, without taking it for granted. If it means anything from a random person on hacker news, I benefited from being told that Santa existed, and from the sound of it your daughter will too.
kirillzubovsky 6y ago
LOL. My mom was visiting us when my 5 year old asked about Santa. I explained with a stone cold face that Santa isn't real, presents come from mom and dad, and instead of waiting for Xmas we just get her things when she needs them, and that's why she didn't get anything for Xmas while her friends did. My mom was petrified, but my daughter didn't seem to care. Kids are really okay with adult stuff, there is more than one way to sparkle delight in their life, and it doesn't have to be Santa (imo).

rlonn 6y ago

I beg to differ about the lying. Do lie about unimportant things, let them try and figure out the lie, then confess (regardless of whether they figured it out or not). It becomes like a game, and if you do it right, in a lighthearted way, they will also trust you when it counts.

tboyd47 6y ago
Wouldn't that also teach them to lie to you about things they consider "unimportant"?

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

We told our kids that Santa was a pretend game that adults play. But, um, I don't think we took the same tack with the Tooth Fairy. We told our kids that the Tooth Fairy recycled teeth - when they fell out of kids' mouths, the Tooth Fairy took them and gave them to babies that were just getting their teeth. So I guess I'm a hypocrite :-(