11 ms·

This is kind of racist.

by bdr 16y ago

msg 16y ago
Maybe they weren't thinking much, but the business in the application is "Honest Achmed's Used Cars and Certificates" I think the joke about "honest" comes from the used car salesman bit and the "Achmed" comes from the Iran hack. It is perhaps unfortunate that they came together in a way that sounds like a stereotype about dishonest Arabs (I hadn't heard of this stereotype before reading the thread).
- xpaulbettsx 16y ago
  I don't think it's particular to Arabs, dishonesty is attributed to any "not them" group by prejudiced people
- gcb 16y ago
  Car salesman are Dishonest. At last here, more than half of car sales man are of arab origin. Hence that made me laugh and I do not feel like I'm a racist.
pnathan 16y ago
Substitute other names, the point remains identical.
- jessedhillon 16y ago
  Okay. I substitute "Honest Achmed" with "N-word Jim's Southern Signed Certificates". This shouldn't be racist at all, (edit: or if it is racist, it shouldn't matter) since there's a point. edit: There's a reason why it's Achmed, and not "Honest Matthew" or "Honest James".
  - dasil003 16y ago
    Where's the racial slur in Honest Achmed?
    - jessedhillon 16y ago
      There doesn't need to be one for it to be racist. pnathan seemed to be saying that either it wasn't racist, or it didn't matter that it was racist, because there was a point. My is that whether or not that's true is immaterial (and demonstrably false): the person created this fictional Honest Achmed -- a play on the stereotype of Arabs as untrustworthy in business dealings. He further went on to capitalize on a number of other stereotypes about Arabs as he presented his completed app. If I wrote the same thing, but from the perspective of the fictional Jim I mentioned above, I don't think you would have any question about how racist it was. If I littered my post with a bunch of stereotypes about black Americans, don't you think that would be racist?
      - pnathan 16y ago
        For all I care, you can use pnathan jessedhillon Mario Luigi Luke Obiwan Matt Maria Adolf Billy the Vampire and the point would be the same: CA process is borked to a hilarious point.
      - ay 16y ago
        "a play on the stereotype" - this makes it humorous, not racist. Please, please, please, oh dear people. Try to be a little bit less busy with the showdown maquillage of political correctness and overthinking. Putting variables X, Y, Z instead of any real references in this passage would have made it politically correct, but would sterilize the point away from it. The stereotypes are useful in being able to predictably and easily recreate a vivid image that can give the backdrop for the core message. This all has nothing to do with Arabs and everything to do with certificates. Those particularly concerned are welcome recreate the same scenario using the image of the "new-russian" Ivan, a representative of the Russian Business Investment Network.
        jessedhillon 16y ago
        > "a play on the stereotype" - this makes it humorous, not racist. It makes it humor based on a racial stereotype. --- This comment is easy to make when you aren't the one who is painted by the stereotypes. If you have to contend with people's pre-existing impressions of you -- one that is derived from these stereotypes -- you might not be dismissive of them. Only someone who is not negatively affected by racial stereotypes would have the audacity to claim that complaints over them are merely for show, or political correctness. Try belonging to a race that is targeted for violence by people who subscribe to these stereotypes. Or try being a decent human and consider that not everyone enjoys the a priori assumption of competence and individuality that you are afforded. Other people have to contend with the a priori assumption of being Achmed.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- dreyfiz 16y ago
  The most depressing kind of response is "if you change the names, the point still stands". I already got the point being made, and I was worried about it when I first heard about the Iranian hackers in late March. The point isn’t what’s offensive. Grabbing my attention with a racist caricature to make your point? That’s the problem. Furthermore, it wasn’t just the name. It was a complete caricature of a dishonest immigrant to the West from my part of the world, with a name, a job, relatives who are also scammy disreputable people, and a crafty scheme. It was the whole racist package with batteries included.
  - Confusion 16y ago
    Have you considered the possibility that maybe the author wasn't an American and he used 'honest Achmed' like an American would have used 'honest Joe' and a German 'honest Hans'?
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - dreyfiz 16y ago
      You’re proposing that the author is Arab? Hardly likely.
derobert 16y ago
Assumably the names were chosen in reference to the recent cracking of Comodo by someone from Iran, possibly the Iranian government.
- kgo 16y ago
  Too bad Iranians aren't Arabs.
makmanalp 16y ago
I'm Middle Eastern, and I think this is hilarious. Anyone who is offended by this, can you please unplug your internet cables so the rest of us can stop being all touchy? In Turkish there is a very fitting proverb which loosely translates to "Whoever has a scar will take offense" meaning if you say something, and someone overreacts to it, it's not your fault and probably just because they have some hidden problem or feeling of inadequacy (the "scar"). If everyone can take themselves a little less seriously, we'd all be a little less pissed. Thank you for listening. </rant> Edit: Okay, here comes Pandora's Box again. The way I see it, what is so offensive about racist speech (or any generalization for that matter) is the presumption that all members of that group are equally <insert derogatory adjective here>. Once you realize how absurd, dumb and wrong that is, I don't see how anyone could possibly take racism seriously and be offended by it. At most, you should conclude that the person who is making the remarks is probably not intelligent, and not worth your time. Heck, perhaps I have some sort of emotional deficiency or something, but I don't even see how people can get so angry about words. For example, I have seen people taunting each other with stuff like "your mother was amazing in bed last night", and the other person getting gradually angrier up to the point that they start physically fighting. I think it's a very curious thing about the human psyche that I can make up something absurd, blabber about it, and get another human to the point of total lack of self control. I think it's all just a dumb made up social convention that we're better off without.
- dreyfiz 16y ago
  "Lighten up, will ya? Why can’t we all enjoy a little racist caricature?" Everyone deserves a presumption of respect and dignity. I don’t make bigoted caricatures at the expense of others just to make some point about trust and certificates, and I don’t expect other people to enjoy and defend it when someone is ignorant enough to resort to racist caricature. It’s the whole Ruby sexism debate all over again, I guess. link for Ruby sexism debate reference: http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-at-gogaruco/ http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-...
  - JonnieCache 16y ago
    >It’s the whole Ruby sexism debate all over again, I guess. I must've missed that one. Sounds like a barrel of laughs.
kevinpet 16y ago
Because it attaches a set of names to straw figures who are clearly only props in a parable about bad security practices? I saw no implication that Honest Ahmed was anything other than honest. The story isn't about shady sleezeball's strip clubs, slot machines and ssl certs. It's about any joe with no special capability setting up shop as an entity implicitly trusted by the entire planet due to a poor security architecture. I think it may make use of stereotypes that arabs are always willing to make a buck, don't care all that much whether there are hoops to jump through, and frequently involve their family in small business dealings. Dear lord, he's trying to personalize his straw men and did not choose to use American rednecks! String him up!
FeministHacker 16y ago
Let's be honest. This is racist. There's really no avoiding that. But it's also "ironic racism". Whilst this is problematic from a minority rights campaigner point of view, when in a group of friends who understand that it's "ironic racism" it serves to bind the group and to stand up against racism, in it's own ironic little way. TL;DR: Just because you laughed doesn't make you a bad person :P
- jessedhillon 16y ago
  God. Thank you.

This is kind of racist.

by bdr 16y ago

This is kind of racist.

msg 16y ago

Maybe they weren't thinking much, but the business in the application is "Honest Achmed's Used Cars and Certificates" I think the joke about "honest" comes from the used car salesman bit and the "Achmed" comes from the Iran hack. It is perhaps unfortunate that they came together in a way that sounds like a stereotype about dishonest Arabs (I hadn't heard of this stereotype before reading the thread).

xpaulbettsx 16y ago
I don't think it's particular to Arabs, dishonesty is attributed to any "not them" group by prejudiced people
gcb 16y ago
Car salesman are Dishonest. At last here, more than half of car sales man are of arab origin. Hence that made me laugh and I do not feel like I'm a racist.

pnathan 16y ago

Substitute other names, the point remains identical.

jessedhillon 16y ago
Okay. I substitute "Honest Achmed" with "N-word Jim's Southern Signed Certificates". This shouldn't be racist at all, (edit: or if it is racist, it shouldn't matter) since there's a point. edit: There's a reason why it's Achmed, and not "Honest Matthew" or "Honest James".
- dasil003 16y ago
  Where's the racial slur in Honest Achmed?
  - jessedhillon 16y ago
    There doesn't need to be one for it to be racist. pnathan seemed to be saying that either it wasn't racist, or it didn't matter that it was racist, because there was a point. My is that whether or not that's true is immaterial (and demonstrably false): the person created this fictional Honest Achmed -- a play on the stereotype of Arabs as untrustworthy in business dealings. He further went on to capitalize on a number of other stereotypes about Arabs as he presented his completed app. If I wrote the same thing, but from the perspective of the fictional Jim I mentioned above, I don't think you would have any question about how racist it was. If I littered my post with a bunch of stereotypes about black Americans, don't you think that would be racist?
    - pnathan 16y ago
      For all I care, you can use pnathan jessedhillon Mario Luigi Luke Obiwan Matt Maria Adolf Billy the Vampire and the point would be the same: CA process is borked to a hilarious point.
    - ay 16y ago
      "a play on the stereotype" - this makes it humorous, not racist. Please, please, please, oh dear people. Try to be a little bit less busy with the showdown maquillage of political correctness and overthinking. Putting variables X, Y, Z instead of any real references in this passage would have made it politically correct, but would sterilize the point away from it. The stereotypes are useful in being able to predictably and easily recreate a vivid image that can give the backdrop for the core message. This all has nothing to do with Arabs and everything to do with certificates. Those particularly concerned are welcome recreate the same scenario using the image of the "new-russian" Ivan, a representative of the Russian Business Investment Network.
      - jessedhillon 16y ago
        > "a play on the stereotype" - this makes it humorous, not racist. It makes it humor based on a racial stereotype. --- This comment is easy to make when you aren't the one who is painted by the stereotypes. If you have to contend with people's pre-existing impressions of you -- one that is derived from these stereotypes -- you might not be dismissive of them. Only someone who is not negatively affected by racial stereotypes would have the audacity to claim that complaints over them are merely for show, or political correctness. Try belonging to a race that is targeted for violence by people who subscribe to these stereotypes. Or try being a decent human and consider that not everyone enjoys the a priori assumption of competence and individuality that you are afforded. Other people have to contend with the a priori assumption of being Achmed.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
dreyfiz 16y ago
The most depressing kind of response is "if you change the names, the point still stands". I already got the point being made, and I was worried about it when I first heard about the Iranian hackers in late March. The point isn’t what’s offensive. Grabbing my attention with a racist caricature to make your point? That’s the problem. Furthermore, it wasn’t just the name. It was a complete caricature of a dishonest immigrant to the West from my part of the world, with a name, a job, relatives who are also scammy disreputable people, and a crafty scheme. It was the whole racist package with batteries included.
- Confusion 16y ago
  Have you considered the possibility that maybe the author wasn't an American and he used 'honest Achmed' like an American would have used 'honest Joe' and a German 'honest Hans'?
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - dreyfiz 16y ago
    You’re proposing that the author is Arab? Hardly likely.

derobert 16y ago

Assumably the names were chosen in reference to the recent cracking of Comodo by someone from Iran, possibly the Iranian government.

kgo 16y ago
Too bad Iranians aren't Arabs.

makmanalp 16y ago

I'm Middle Eastern, and I think this is hilarious. Anyone who is offended by this, can you please unplug your internet cables so the rest of us can stop being all touchy? In Turkish there is a very fitting proverb which loosely translates to "Whoever has a scar will take offense" meaning if you say something, and someone overreacts to it, it's not your fault and probably just because they have some hidden problem or feeling of inadequacy (the "scar"). If everyone can take themselves a little less seriously, we'd all be a little less pissed. Thank you for listening. </rant> Edit: Okay, here comes Pandora's Box again. The way I see it, what is so offensive about racist speech (or any generalization for that matter) is the presumption that all members of that group are equally <insert derogatory adjective here>. Once you realize how absurd, dumb and wrong that is, I don't see how anyone could possibly take racism seriously and be offended by it. At most, you should conclude that the person who is making the remarks is probably not intelligent, and not worth your time. Heck, perhaps I have some sort of emotional deficiency or something, but I don't even see how people can get so angry about words. For example, I have seen people taunting each other with stuff like "your mother was amazing in bed last night", and the other person getting gradually angrier up to the point that they start physically fighting. I think it's a very curious thing about the human psyche that I can make up something absurd, blabber about it, and get another human to the point of total lack of self control. I think it's all just a dumb made up social convention that we're better off without.

dreyfiz 16y ago
"Lighten up, will ya? Why can’t we all enjoy a little racist caricature?" Everyone deserves a presumption of respect and dignity. I don’t make bigoted caricatures at the expense of others just to make some point about trust and certificates, and I don’t expect other people to enjoy and defend it when someone is ignorant enough to resort to racist caricature. It’s the whole Ruby sexism debate all over again, I guess. link for Ruby sexism debate reference: http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-at-gogaruco/ http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-...
- JonnieCache 16y ago
  >It’s the whole Ruby sexism debate all over again, I guess. I must've missed that one. Sounds like a barrel of laughs.

kevinpet 16y ago

Because it attaches a set of names to straw figures who are clearly only props in a parable about bad security practices? I saw no implication that Honest Ahmed was anything other than honest. The story isn't about shady sleezeball's strip clubs, slot machines and ssl certs. It's about any joe with no special capability setting up shop as an entity implicitly trusted by the entire planet due to a poor security architecture. I think it may make use of stereotypes that arabs are always willing to make a buck, don't care all that much whether there are hoops to jump through, and frequently involve their family in small business dealings. Dear lord, he's trying to personalize his straw men and did not choose to use American rednecks! String him up!

FeministHacker 16y ago

Let's be honest. This is racist. There's really no avoiding that. But it's also "ironic racism". Whilst this is problematic from a minority rights campaigner point of view, when in a group of friends who understand that it's "ironic racism" it serves to bind the group and to stand up against racism, in it's own ironic little way. TL;DR: Just because you laughed doesn't make you a bad person :P

jessedhillon 16y ago
God. Thank you.