5 ms·

Bold words from a man who, to the best of my knowledge, never acknowledged or reckoned with the role that his own dictatorial handling of the Catiline conspirat

Bold words from a man who, to the best of my knowledge, never acknowledged or reckoned with the role that his own dictatorial handling of the Catiline conspirators played in the fall of the Republic.

cobbzilla 6y ago
Maybe having his severed head and hands put on public display was some kind of karmic retribution?
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Cicero was demanitated at 63 (beating Ernesto Guevara by 24 years), yet Roger Daltrey (76) still has to sing "hope I die before I get old." Now that's karma?
  - jfengel 6y ago
    I had heard that they drop that line when they sing it now. False rumor?
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      Still there as of 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_4QrPPPcBw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_4QrPPPcBw
    - mikestew 6y ago
      Saw them live on their most recent tour last year, and Daltrey still sings about his demise before reaching elderly status. EDIT: whoops, it was the 50th anniversary tour of 2016. They didn't do My Generation in Seattle in 2019.
  - corpMaverick 6y ago
    'demanitated' that is a new word for me. Google doesn't show much. Does it mean cutting hands? from the (Spanish/Latin) manos=hands
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      my attempt at that, yes. I hope I got the declension correct in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24628056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24628056 but didn't bother double checking this neologism. (and I admit to having a morbid, in the main, achiral habit on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250512 )
siltpotato 6y ago
How does one roast a two millennia dead politician?
stanrivers 6y ago
So this is where I also struggle with Cicero. He was overly political, very worried about his own image, flip-flopped sides as suited him and was easily persuaded with gifts of status. But we remember him for his philosophies and writings (or his summaries of other’s philosophy for the more cynical), which did seem to have a impact on future generations. On one hand, all men fall short of their ideal. But do you really think character qualities such as Cicero’s erase the positive influence he might have had despite them over the longer term? I struggle with this and it’s a genuine question. On reading his biography I was put off on the man himself more or less, while at the same time his words seem to inspire.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  The point of ideals is that we're often willing to overlook[1] flaws in their messengers[2]. A man's retch should exceed his grasp, or what's a-heaving for? "The power which the strong have over the weak, the employer over the employed, the educated over the unlettered, the experienced over the confiding, even the clever over the silly -- the forbearing or inoffensive use of all this power or authority, or a total abstinence from it when the case admits it, will show the gentleman in a plain light." -- General Robert E. Lee "The nobles would still be in charge if they'd cared more about fruits than about roots." -- Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte [1] that is, for judging the ideal. Judging a messenger by the ideals they profess to aspire is a different matter. “Be true to what you said on paper.” – Martin Luther King, Jr., April 3, 1968. [2] compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23378137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23378137
  - giardini 6y ago
    082349872349872 says "A man's retch should exceed his grasp..." I saw what you did there.
vondur 6y ago
Cataline did have an army, and was looking to take over Rome for himself. As far as I can remember, we don’t have much information on the conspiracy.
cowpig 6y ago
I've been on a bit of a roman history binge lately, fueled by the discovery of Mike Duncan's podcast, "The History of Rome" so I'm going to tell the story I understood from that here for context: In his telling, the Catiline Conspiracy was a product of its time: Marius and Sulla showed the Roman aristocracy that if you just ignored the law and had popular support + an army, you could basically do whatever you want, and so that became the norm for the next generation. At the time, Cicero was one of the two Consuls, the heads of state that were elected yearly by the senate. And Pompey, a charismatic and popular Roman general was in command of a large army and had just won some wars in the east. Cicero was afraid of what Pompey might do with all his popularity and legions (again, ambitious men taking what they wanted by flouting laws was all the rage). So when Cicero learned of a (not very well-organized) coup was being organized by senator Catilina, he attempted to use it as a way to unite the Roman senate against treasonous behaviour. Cicero convinced the senators, and Catilina was exiled, protesting that he'd been mistreated. But he went and joined the army of centurion Manlius, who was helping organize the rebellion. The rebels then tried to get a Gallic tribe, the Allobroges, to join them, but were betrayed to the senate and letters they had sent were used by Cicero to convince them to sentence five of the conspirators to death without trial. Julius Caesar, at this point just another politician, protested this "sentenced to death without trial" outcome loudly, seeing Cicero as an enemy of his own ambitions. For the rest of his life, putting five men to death without trial would be brought to discredit Cicero again and again, including being used as an excuse to exile him. @throwanem -- does that sound like a reasonable summary of the context of your comment?
- stanrivers 6y ago
  I would second Mike Duncan’s podcasts on Rome as being well worth your time. And that is how I recall that period of time. It’s one of those situations where you let the reality of the situation deviate you from your ideals, I think. @throwanem - have you ever read anything where he commented in hindsight that he still believed that he made the right choice? I’m newer to Roman history and sounds like you might have experience / background here.
  - throwanem 6y ago

Bold words from a man who, to the best of my knowledge, never acknowledged or reckoned with the role that his own dictatorial handling of the Catiline conspirators played in the fall of the Republic.

cobbzilla 6y ago

Maybe having his severed head and hands put on public display was some kind of karmic retribution?

082349872349872 6y ago
Cicero was demanitated at 63 (beating Ernesto Guevara by 24 years), yet Roger Daltrey (76) still has to sing "hope I die before I get old." Now that's karma?
- jfengel 6y ago
  I had heard that they drop that line when they sing it now. False rumor?
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Still there as of 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_4QrPPPcBw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_4QrPPPcBw
  - mikestew 6y ago
    Saw them live on their most recent tour last year, and Daltrey still sings about his demise before reaching elderly status. EDIT: whoops, it was the 50th anniversary tour of 2016. They didn't do My Generation in Seattle in 2019.
- corpMaverick 6y ago
  'demanitated' that is a new word for me. Google doesn't show much. Does it mean cutting hands? from the (Spanish/Latin) manos=hands
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    my attempt at that, yes. I hope I got the declension correct in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24628056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24628056 but didn't bother double checking this neologism. (and I admit to having a morbid, in the main, achiral habit on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250512 )

siltpotato 6y ago

How does one roast a two millennia dead politician?

stanrivers 6y ago

So this is where I also struggle with Cicero. He was overly political, very worried about his own image, flip-flopped sides as suited him and was easily persuaded with gifts of status. But we remember him for his philosophies and writings (or his summaries of other’s philosophy for the more cynical), which did seem to have a impact on future generations. On one hand, all men fall short of their ideal. But do you really think character qualities such as Cicero’s erase the positive influence he might have had despite them over the longer term? I struggle with this and it’s a genuine question. On reading his biography I was put off on the man himself more or less, while at the same time his words seem to inspire.

082349872349872 6y ago
The point of ideals is that we're often willing to overlook[1] flaws in their messengers[2]. A man's retch should exceed his grasp, or what's a-heaving for? "The power which the strong have over the weak, the employer over the employed, the educated over the unlettered, the experienced over the confiding, even the clever over the silly -- the forbearing or inoffensive use of all this power or authority, or a total abstinence from it when the case admits it, will show the gentleman in a plain light." -- General Robert E. Lee "The nobles would still be in charge if they'd cared more about fruits than about roots." -- Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte [1] that is, for judging the ideal. Judging a messenger by the ideals they profess to aspire is a different matter. “Be true to what you said on paper.” – Martin Luther King, Jr., April 3, 1968. [2] compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23378137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23378137
- giardini 6y ago
  082349872349872 says "A man's retch should exceed his grasp..." I saw what you did there.

vondur 6y ago

Cataline did have an army, and was looking to take over Rome for himself. As far as I can remember, we don’t have much information on the conspiracy.

cowpig 6y ago

I've been on a bit of a roman history binge lately, fueled by the discovery of Mike Duncan's podcast, "The History of Rome" so I'm going to tell the story I understood from that here for context: In his telling, the Catiline Conspiracy was a product of its time: Marius and Sulla showed the Roman aristocracy that if you just ignored the law and had popular support + an army, you could basically do whatever you want, and so that became the norm for the next generation. At the time, Cicero was one of the two Consuls, the heads of state that were elected yearly by the senate. And Pompey, a charismatic and popular Roman general was in command of a large army and had just won some wars in the east. Cicero was afraid of what Pompey might do with all his popularity and legions (again, ambitious men taking what they wanted by flouting laws was all the rage). So when Cicero learned of a (not very well-organized) coup was being organized by senator Catilina, he attempted to use it as a way to unite the Roman senate against treasonous behaviour. Cicero convinced the senators, and Catilina was exiled, protesting that he'd been mistreated. But he went and joined the army of centurion Manlius, who was helping organize the rebellion. The rebels then tried to get a Gallic tribe, the Allobroges, to join them, but were betrayed to the senate and letters they had sent were used by Cicero to convince them to sentence five of the conspirators to death without trial. Julius Caesar, at this point just another politician, protested this "sentenced to death without trial" outcome loudly, seeing Cicero as an enemy of his own ambitions. For the rest of his life, putting five men to death without trial would be brought to discredit Cicero again and again, including being used as an excuse to exile him. @throwanem -- does that sound like a reasonable summary of the context of your comment?

stanrivers 6y ago
I would second Mike Duncan’s podcasts on Rome as being well worth your time. And that is how I recall that period of time. It’s one of those situations where you let the reality of the situation deviate you from your ideals, I think. @throwanem - have you ever read anything where he commented in hindsight that he still believed that he made the right choice? I’m newer to Roman history and sounds like you might have experience / background here.
- throwanem 6y ago