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How is this not exactly like margarine or trans fats from vegetable oils? Let's take something natural and replace it with something made in a factory through

by jgowdy 6y ago

How is this not exactly like margarine or trans fats from vegetable oils? Let's take something natural and replace it with something made in a factory through all kinds of industrial food processes, but since it's made out of vegetables it must be okay! Remember when we were all in consensus on eliminating processed foods? But now that we're replacing meat, processed foods are A-okay. Also, male fertility rates are crashing, but it's definitely not related to ever increasing intake of phytoestrogens...

knuthsat 6y ago
There's massively more phytoestrogens in beer than in soy. Fertility rates are crashing because men are getting massively fat.
- jgowdy 6y ago
  And how are males not getting massively fat due to processed foods and the significant pressure of soybean oil and products based on soybean oil and other processed foods rich in xenoestrogens from factory foods? Yet you’re pointing to “beer” as if it some key ingredient. Does the introduction of beer somehow correlate with the collapse of male fertility rates? Or does the introduction of vegetable based factory foods correlate with the crash of male fertility? It makes me sad that we were about the evidence before but seeding the desired answers now.
  - knuthsat 6y ago
    It was implied that phytoestrogens from soy affect fertility when most of phytoestrogens consumed come from beer. Phytoestrogens do not have any significant effect on male hormones. Getting fat because one eats too much of food is the main reason.
    - hkeide 6y ago
      The calory in calory out (CICO) model is pretty much debunked I think. Some foods affect metabolism, others affect satiety. People in the US had enough food a hundred years ago, yet they weren't morbidly obese.
      - knuthsat 6y ago
        Yet the average calorie intake in the USA, Australia and UK is at its highest amount in history. My country (Croatia) went from an average of ~20kg of meat per year per person (~1990s) to ~70kg of meat per year per person in 30 years. The amount of calories is obviously massively different. The mediterranean diet in Croatia is dead. People are getting obese and getting diseases that come with obesity (heart disease, diabetes etc.). Meat is not to blame, it's people eating massive amounts of calories, living an unhealthy sedentary lifestyle. CICO model works for healthy people. For those with metabolic disease (diabetes and similar) it might not work completely.
    - jgowdy 6y ago
      Can you explain when the introduction of beer suddenly caused the crash in male fertility? As opposed to it being related to the huge push towards xenoestrogens? It’s cute to find a masculine form of victim blaming but there is literally zero evidence to back this up. You might as well blame ownership of pickup trucks for male fertility crashing. This is terribly hollow and baseless.
      - knuthsat 6y ago
        Beer contains magnitudes more phytoestrogens than soy. I do not understand how soy is then to blame for phytoestrogen content when people consume more beer in their life than soy products. That is the only reason why I mentioned beer. I do not believe phytoestrogens have any effect on male hormones. It's quite known that getting obese has a massive effect on male hormones. The mehanistic/metabolism effect is known. We know why obese men become infertile, why they grow breasts (gynecomastia) and all the other effects of obesity.
rsynnott 6y ago
> Also, male fertility rates are crashing, but it's definitely not related to ever increasing intake of phytoestrogens... Correct, it is not.
- jgowdy 6y ago
  Source for why crashing male fertility rates aren’t related to xenoestrogens?
goatcode 6y ago
> margarine or trans fats also garbage, so not dissimilar.
- jgowdy 6y ago
  Please give more information as to why factory foods created with vegetables aren’t similar between margins, trans fats, and other vegetable based foods and literally killed millions of people... but this time the vegetable based replacements are different...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - goatcode 6y ago
    >not DISsimilar so I was saying they were similar, agreeing with you.
jgowdy 6y ago
The number of people willing to insist that phytoestrogens and other xenoestrogens aren’t related to why male fertility rates are quite really crashing is truly sad. You aren’t interested in an open discussion of the issues. You just want to shut down any perspective that implicates your chosen lifestyle as to why processed foods, plastics, and phytoestrogens and other xenoestrogens are causing these issues. Yet like some of the impacts of the obesity crisis you blame “beer” as if people are suddenly doing this to themselves. This is massive blame shifting. Ask people why they are exercising enough to blame them for McDonalds while you’re at it.

by jgowdy 6y ago

knuthsat 6y ago

There's massively more phytoestrogens in beer than in soy. Fertility rates are crashing because men are getting massively fat.

jgowdy 6y ago
And how are males not getting massively fat due to processed foods and the significant pressure of soybean oil and products based on soybean oil and other processed foods rich in xenoestrogens from factory foods? Yet you’re pointing to “beer” as if it some key ingredient. Does the introduction of beer somehow correlate with the collapse of male fertility rates? Or does the introduction of vegetable based factory foods correlate with the crash of male fertility? It makes me sad that we were about the evidence before but seeding the desired answers now.
- knuthsat 6y ago
  It was implied that phytoestrogens from soy affect fertility when most of phytoestrogens consumed come from beer. Phytoestrogens do not have any significant effect on male hormones. Getting fat because one eats too much of food is the main reason.
  - hkeide 6y ago
    The calory in calory out (CICO) model is pretty much debunked I think. Some foods affect metabolism, others affect satiety. People in the US had enough food a hundred years ago, yet they weren't morbidly obese.
    - knuthsat 6y ago
      Yet the average calorie intake in the USA, Australia and UK is at its highest amount in history. My country (Croatia) went from an average of ~20kg of meat per year per person (~1990s) to ~70kg of meat per year per person in 30 years. The amount of calories is obviously massively different. The mediterranean diet in Croatia is dead. People are getting obese and getting diseases that come with obesity (heart disease, diabetes etc.). Meat is not to blame, it's people eating massive amounts of calories, living an unhealthy sedentary lifestyle. CICO model works for healthy people. For those with metabolic disease (diabetes and similar) it might not work completely.
  - jgowdy 6y ago
    Can you explain when the introduction of beer suddenly caused the crash in male fertility? As opposed to it being related to the huge push towards xenoestrogens? It’s cute to find a masculine form of victim blaming but there is literally zero evidence to back this up. You might as well blame ownership of pickup trucks for male fertility crashing. This is terribly hollow and baseless.
    - knuthsat 6y ago
      Beer contains magnitudes more phytoestrogens than soy. I do not understand how soy is then to blame for phytoestrogen content when people consume more beer in their life than soy products. That is the only reason why I mentioned beer. I do not believe phytoestrogens have any effect on male hormones. It's quite known that getting obese has a massive effect on male hormones. The mehanistic/metabolism effect is known. We know why obese men become infertile, why they grow breasts (gynecomastia) and all the other effects of obesity.

rsynnott 6y ago

> Also, male fertility rates are crashing, but it's definitely not related to ever increasing intake of phytoestrogens... Correct, it is not.

jgowdy 6y ago
Source for why crashing male fertility rates aren’t related to xenoestrogens?

goatcode 6y ago

> margarine or trans fats also garbage, so not dissimilar.

jgowdy 6y ago
Please give more information as to why factory foods created with vegetables aren’t similar between margins, trans fats, and other vegetable based foods and literally killed millions of people... but this time the vegetable based replacements are different...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- goatcode 6y ago
  >not DISsimilar so I was saying they were similar, agreeing with you.

jgowdy 6y ago

The number of people willing to insist that phytoestrogens and other xenoestrogens aren’t related to why male fertility rates are quite really crashing is truly sad. You aren’t interested in an open discussion of the issues. You just want to shut down any perspective that implicates your chosen lifestyle as to why processed foods, plastics, and phytoestrogens and other xenoestrogens are causing these issues. Yet like some of the impacts of the obesity crisis you blame “beer” as if people are suddenly doing this to themselves. This is massive blame shifting. Ask people why they are exercising enough to blame them for McDonalds while you’re at it.