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This seems like a false equivalence. Trans people aren't trying to tell cis people that their physical bodies aren't allowed to matter to them, nor to invalidat

by chc 6y ago

This seems like a false equivalence. Trans people aren't trying to tell cis people that their physical bodies aren't allowed to matter to them, nor to invalidate cis people's gender or force them to be treated as another gender.

runarberg 6y ago
Except when they are: As in the case of Caster Semenya. Never has it been more clear that trans rights are human rights.
- qazpot 6y ago
  Trans athletes who are male and transitioned to female should not be allowed to participate in women sports because it is discriminatory to women.
  - runarberg 6y ago
    Caster Semenya is a cis woman, not trans. People are so preoccupied with stripping the rights of trans people that they ended up stripping away the rights of cis people while they were at it.
    - klipt 6y ago
      It's funny how this gets spun as "discrimination against women" when it's more "discrimination between women". Only women athletes want Caster excluded. No men athletes find Caster threatening. Caster's case has nothing to do with trans people, it's more that she has rare biology (intersex) but happened to be raised as a woman. Since her rare biology gives her some of the same advantages as men (elevated testosterone) the question is whether it's more fair for her to compete with men or with women. She can easily beat many women, so some women feel it's unfair for her to compete with them.
nicoburns 6y ago
> Trans people aren't trying to tell cis people that their physical bodies aren't allowed to matter to them I feel like they are. Specifically, if you believe that "feeling like" a gender makes you that gender, then it seems to me that logically you have to believe one of the following: (1) That having the physiology associated with a given gender is not sufficient to count as a gender. This invalidates the identity of people like me who don't experience the "gender feeling" that trans people (and some cis people) talk about, and therefore base their identity as a man/woman on their physicality. OR (2) That gender categories are "open" where for example either feeling like a man OR having "male" physiology makes you a man. But that seems to make the whole concept of gender pointless because people with penises don't share anything in common with people who feel like men (that they don't also share with people who feel like women and people with vaginas) unless they happen to be people who fall into both categories. It also makes it impossible for someone express that they have one of those things but not the other because there is only one label "man/woman" to describe two distinct phenomena. --- If you have a suggestion for how someone like me who has male physiology but doesn't have a "feeling of being a man" (or any other gender) can represent themselves in a system where there is only a single gender identifier and making sub-distinctions is frowned upon (because "trans (wo)men are (wo)men") then I'm all ears.
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  > If you have a suggestion for how someone like me who has male physiology but doesn't have a "feeling of being a man" (or any other gender) can represent themselves in a system where there is only a single gender identifier and making sub-distinctions is frowned upon (because "trans (wo)men are (wo)men") then I'm all ears. This is called nonbinary, agender, or genderqueer. This is a fairly established situation. You may come across someone who uses nonstandard pronouns such as "they/them" or "zyr/zem" or something like that. There's even an LGBTQ flag for being nonbinary. (Q stands for queer/questioning as well). If you are assigned male at birth but don't identify as male or any other gender then you may be nonbinary or agender. If you're interested in learning more I recommend reaching out to a local LGBTQ community organization to be more educated about gender identity and to figure out if you might yourself be LGBTQ! (Additionally on technicality, trans means "anything that isn't identifiying as one's assigned gender at birth". Being nonbinary is a subset of being trans. Society is most familiar with binary trans identity, which is when someone is assigned F/M at birth but identifies as M/F, however this is not the entire set of trans identity. You are free to be assigned M at birth but identify with no gender, and still be trans.)

by chc 6y ago

runarberg 6y ago

Except when they are: As in the case of Caster Semenya. Never has it been more clear that trans rights are human rights.

qazpot 6y ago
Trans athletes who are male and transitioned to female should not be allowed to participate in women sports because it is discriminatory to women.
- runarberg 6y ago
  Caster Semenya is a cis woman, not trans. People are so preoccupied with stripping the rights of trans people that they ended up stripping away the rights of cis people while they were at it.
  - klipt 6y ago
    It's funny how this gets spun as "discrimination against women" when it's more "discrimination between women". Only women athletes want Caster excluded. No men athletes find Caster threatening. Caster's case has nothing to do with trans people, it's more that she has rare biology (intersex) but happened to be raised as a woman. Since her rare biology gives her some of the same advantages as men (elevated testosterone) the question is whether it's more fair for her to compete with men or with women. She can easily beat many women, so some women feel it's unfair for her to compete with them.

nicoburns 6y ago

> Trans people aren't trying to tell cis people that their physical bodies aren't allowed to matter to them I feel like they are. Specifically, if you believe that "feeling like" a gender makes you that gender, then it seems to me that logically you have to believe one of the following: (1) That having the physiology associated with a given gender is not sufficient to count as a gender. This invalidates the identity of people like me who don't experience the "gender feeling" that trans people (and some cis people) talk about, and therefore base their identity as a man/woman on their physicality. OR (2) That gender categories are "open" where for example either feeling like a man OR having "male" physiology makes you a man. But that seems to make the whole concept of gender pointless because people with penises don't share anything in common with people who feel like men (that they don't also share with people who feel like women and people with vaginas) unless they happen to be people who fall into both categories. It also makes it impossible for someone express that they have one of those things but not the other because there is only one label "man/woman" to describe two distinct phenomena. --- If you have a suggestion for how someone like me who has male physiology but doesn't have a "feeling of being a man" (or any other gender) can represent themselves in a system where there is only a single gender identifier and making sub-distinctions is frowned upon (because "trans (wo)men are (wo)men") then I'm all ears.

TeaDrunk 6y ago
> If you have a suggestion for how someone like me who has male physiology but doesn't have a "feeling of being a man" (or any other gender) can represent themselves in a system where there is only a single gender identifier and making sub-distinctions is frowned upon (because "trans (wo)men are (wo)men") then I'm all ears. This is called nonbinary, agender, or genderqueer. This is a fairly established situation. You may come across someone who uses nonstandard pronouns such as "they/them" or "zyr/zem" or something like that. There's even an LGBTQ flag for being nonbinary. (Q stands for queer/questioning as well). If you are assigned male at birth but don't identify as male or any other gender then you may be nonbinary or agender. If you're interested in learning more I recommend reaching out to a local LGBTQ community organization to be more educated about gender identity and to figure out if you might yourself be LGBTQ! (Additionally on technicality, trans means "anything that isn't identifiying as one's assigned gender at birth". Being nonbinary is a subset of being trans. Society is most familiar with binary trans identity, which is when someone is assigned F/M at birth but identifies as M/F, however this is not the entire set of trans identity. You are free to be assigned M at birth but identify with no gender, and still be trans.)