15 ms·

On the other hand, in North America, massive amounts of freight are moved by rail, extremely efficiently, and railways are generally pretty profitable. A train

On the other hand, in North America, massive amounts of freight are moved by rail, extremely efficiently, and railways are generally pretty profitable. A train might be a mile long (as a child, you count the cars as you go past on the highway, and 80 or so was pretty standard). The freight companies own the rails and their trains get priority over passenger trains. Via Rail has exactly the same problem in Canada. In contrast, in Europe, while some cargo is moved by rail, the focus is on passengers. Freight trains (all trains) are short, and passengers have priority over freight. A quick google brought this up, though I haven't read through it in full: https://www.freightwaves.com/news/railroad/us-and-european-freight-railroads-are-on-different-tracks https://www.freightwaves.com/news/railroad/us-and-european-f...

protomyth 6y ago
The US picked a different optimization. The combination of transportation modes from Rail, Truck, and Barge are amazingly important to the health of the country. Passenger rail had a brief time of importance but was passed by plane and car travel. When the fully automated, electric car and buses arrive, I would imagine that passenger rail in the US will disappear entirely except for nostalgia operations and metro systems already in operation. It is much easier to be B2B or B2G than deal with individual customers for any of the railroads, and getting passengers off the rail will be a bonus for them. The nodal nature of rail will always be a handicap compared to roads.
- sjsamson 6y ago
  >The US picked a different optimization. The combination of transportation modes from Rail, Truck, and Barge are amazingly important to the health of the country. Passenger rail had a brief time of importance but was passed by plane and car travel. The US could have “chosen” to do both (there’s no single policy decision or document to point to), as it had done in its railroad heyday, and as other countries do (e.g. Switzerland, China, Russia, etc.). It was and continues to be a failure of public policy and political system that passenger rail is so bad, and even freight rail is as underinvested in. That’s not a knock on the other forms of transport, all of which form a vital part of a larger interconnected, intermodal transportation network, but rail should be an important trunk of that system given its capacity and efficiency. Yet rail has had the least amount of public financial and policy support. By comparison, the US has invested trillions of taxpayer dollars in building and maintaining millions of miles of publicly owned roads (almost all non-tolled), airports and Air Traffic Control (ATC) system, and seaports, canals, dredged harbors and navigable inland waterways, Vessel Traffic Service (VTS). >When the fully automated, electric car and buses arrive, I would imagine that passenger rail in the US will disappear entirely except for nostalgia operations and metro systems already in operation. It is much easier to be B2B or B2G than deal with individual customers for any of the railroads, and getting passengers off the rail will be a bonus for them. The nodal nature of rail will always be a handicap compared to roads. We do need autonomous, electric buses and trucks, but fully automated, electric railway technology exists now and has for many decades, and well over century in the case of electrification.[1][2] Standards-based electric trains and related technology are available for purchase off the shelf from multiple vendors, do not need to carry large battery packs in the vehicle, and no pie in sky hope for future automation of an insanely hard problem. Electric railways are the most optimized form of land-based transportation, and arguably the most overall. “The first rule of any technology used in a business is that automation applied to an efficient operation will magnify the efficiency. The second is that automation applied to an inefficient operation will magnify the inefficiency.” - Bill Gates [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_train_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_train_system...
  - protomyth 6y ago
    The US could have “chosen” to do both (there’s no single policy decision or document to point to), as it had done in its railroad heyday, and as other countries do (e.g. Switzerland, China, Russia, etc.). It was and continues to be a failure of public policy and political system that passenger rail is so bad, and even freight rail is as underinvested in. That’s not a knock on the other forms of transport, all of which form a vital part of a larger interconnected, intermodal transportation network, but rail should be an important trunk of that system given its capacity and efficiency. Yet rail has had the least amount of public financial and policy support. By comparison, the US has invested trillions of taxpayer dollars in building and maintaining millions of miles of publicly owned roads (almost all non-tolled), airports and Air Traffic Control (ATC) system, and seaports, canals, dredged harbors and navigable inland waterways, Vessel Traffic Service (VTS). I don't really think that was in the cards. The car was already prevalent before the interstate system was built, and the military was much more about a road solution than rail. As to cost, look at California trying to add high speed rail, as they have failed badly for what was a very modest set of served areas. Rail does cargo very well. It's very easy to setup the factories and elevators on the rail line. Rail has some serious problems with terminal delivery of people in the US. You still need another form of transportation to get people home. Without fundamentally changing where people live or work, it needs something else. We do need autonomous, electric buses and trucks, but fully automated, electric railway technology exists now and has for many decades, and well over century in the case of electrification.[1][2] Standards-based electric trains and related technology are available for purchase off the shelf from multiple vendors, do not need to carry large battery packs in the vehicle, and no pie in sky hope for future automation of an insanely hard problem. Electric railways are the most optimized form of land-based transportation, and arguably the most overall. Electric, Automated trains still don't reach people's homes. You are not going to change the fundamental idea of living in suburbs or the country. In fact, current events make living away from the cities a good option. The cost of rail in the USA is too high even for states that really want it. It will be much easier to alter how the USA builds roads to add cues for automation than try to add rail everywhere. Electric, automated buses will replace passenger rail and be much more flexible for changing trends in where people are going. Automated cars will make personal transport to individual destinations much more efficient and easy. Other than the metro systems that exist, there won't be much place for passenger rail.
bavcyc 6y ago
The long trains you mention are called unit trains. They move from point A to point B as one unit. Typically the unit trains will be of all one type, e.g. tank, grain, container. The trains with mixed types can be unit trains but they can also have intermediate stops where cars are added or dropped off. The optimizations the rail companies perform to maximize the freight movement (and profit) is very interesting.
deepnotderp 6y ago
Correct! American freight railroads are the most efficient in the world, Europe by contrast, chose to move passengers, but this has meant that more freight has been pushed off the rails onto the road.
- LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
  By what measure? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_usage#Freight_rail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_usag... edit: Furthermore https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3098444/china-planning-high-speed-rail-freight-network-help-e-commerce https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3098444/chi... From the point of view of a SimCity/Civilization/Railroad Tycoon player, they seem to do everything right. While the rest of the world is engaging in useless Command&Conquer-like clashes, always on RED ALERT!
  - deepnotderp 6y ago
    By cost per ton mile, in which US freight rail is cheaper than almost any other country in the world, including China. China's rail freight, as a percent of intercity freight has been steadily declining [0], in large part due to development on high speed rail, which has hurt freight rail networks. [0] https://www.mdpi.com/sustainability/sustainability-12-00583/article_deploy/html/images/sustainability-12-00583-g002-550.jpg https://www.mdpi.com/sustainability/sustainability-12-00583/... https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/12/2/583/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/12/2/583/htm
    - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
      Hm. Ok. Seems like almost everywhere, when road freight grows in relation to rail freight, even when rail freight grows by absolute tonnage transported. I think it slowed a little bit because "change of management" due to imprisonment of [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Zhijun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Zhijun and consecutive dissolvement of [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Railways_(China) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Railways_(China) transforming that into [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railway under supervision of the [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Railway_Administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Railway_Administratio... Imagine what would happen if Warren Buffet suddenly got jailed (for instance caused by Cancel Culture), along with about 40 to 50 others from higher management in connected companies, leading to break up of Berkshire Hathaway, Inc? Not exactly bye bye BNSF, but not good either (for a while). Just handwaving here, but the timeframe fits IMO.
LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
That is at least for Germany not entirely correct. If some train from some logistics provider embedded in some just-in-time supply chain scheme is delayed for what ever reason, it is prioritised (Though this is new, since maybe about 5 years?). Which means you are standing still for maybe 15 to 20 minutes somewhere 'out there' between stations, and can enjoy 3 freight trains overtaking you, and maybe horses, cows, or just the noise protection walls. Chaos! Anyways, this chaos is self inflicted by building back switches, which would enable a more granular partition of the tracks, and more flexible passing of trains. All in all, our railways are indeed "'ne Lachnummer"(laughing stock). OTHO not so ridiculous at all, considering the massive build back of infrastructure.

protomyth 6y ago

The US picked a different optimization. The combination of transportation modes from Rail, Truck, and Barge are amazingly important to the health of the country. Passenger rail had a brief time of importance but was passed by plane and car travel. When the fully automated, electric car and buses arrive, I would imagine that passenger rail in the US will disappear entirely except for nostalgia operations and metro systems already in operation. It is much easier to be B2B or B2G than deal with individual customers for any of the railroads, and getting passengers off the rail will be a bonus for them. The nodal nature of rail will always be a handicap compared to roads.

sjsamson 6y ago
>The US picked a different optimization. The combination of transportation modes from Rail, Truck, and Barge are amazingly important to the health of the country. Passenger rail had a brief time of importance but was passed by plane and car travel. The US could have “chosen” to do both (there’s no single policy decision or document to point to), as it had done in its railroad heyday, and as other countries do (e.g. Switzerland, China, Russia, etc.). It was and continues to be a failure of public policy and political system that passenger rail is so bad, and even freight rail is as underinvested in. That’s not a knock on the other forms of transport, all of which form a vital part of a larger interconnected, intermodal transportation network, but rail should be an important trunk of that system given its capacity and efficiency. Yet rail has had the least amount of public financial and policy support. By comparison, the US has invested trillions of taxpayer dollars in building and maintaining millions of miles of publicly owned roads (almost all non-tolled), airports and Air Traffic Control (ATC) system, and seaports, canals, dredged harbors and navigable inland waterways, Vessel Traffic Service (VTS). >When the fully automated, electric car and buses arrive, I would imagine that passenger rail in the US will disappear entirely except for nostalgia operations and metro systems already in operation. It is much easier to be B2B or B2G than deal with individual customers for any of the railroads, and getting passengers off the rail will be a bonus for them. The nodal nature of rail will always be a handicap compared to roads. We do need autonomous, electric buses and trucks, but fully automated, electric railway technology exists now and has for many decades, and well over century in the case of electrification.[1][2] Standards-based electric trains and related technology are available for purchase off the shelf from multiple vendors, do not need to carry large battery packs in the vehicle, and no pie in sky hope for future automation of an insanely hard problem. Electric railways are the most optimized form of land-based transportation, and arguably the most overall. “The first rule of any technology used in a business is that automation applied to an efficient operation will magnify the efficiency. The second is that automation applied to an inefficient operation will magnify the inefficiency.” - Bill Gates [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_train_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_train_system...
- protomyth 6y ago
  The US could have “chosen” to do both (there’s no single policy decision or document to point to), as it had done in its railroad heyday, and as other countries do (e.g. Switzerland, China, Russia, etc.). It was and continues to be a failure of public policy and political system that passenger rail is so bad, and even freight rail is as underinvested in. That’s not a knock on the other forms of transport, all of which form a vital part of a larger interconnected, intermodal transportation network, but rail should be an important trunk of that system given its capacity and efficiency. Yet rail has had the least amount of public financial and policy support. By comparison, the US has invested trillions of taxpayer dollars in building and maintaining millions of miles of publicly owned roads (almost all non-tolled), airports and Air Traffic Control (ATC) system, and seaports, canals, dredged harbors and navigable inland waterways, Vessel Traffic Service (VTS). I don't really think that was in the cards. The car was already prevalent before the interstate system was built, and the military was much more about a road solution than rail. As to cost, look at California trying to add high speed rail, as they have failed badly for what was a very modest set of served areas. Rail does cargo very well. It's very easy to setup the factories and elevators on the rail line. Rail has some serious problems with terminal delivery of people in the US. You still need another form of transportation to get people home. Without fundamentally changing where people live or work, it needs something else. We do need autonomous, electric buses and trucks, but fully automated, electric railway technology exists now and has for many decades, and well over century in the case of electrification.[1][2] Standards-based electric trains and related technology are available for purchase off the shelf from multiple vendors, do not need to carry large battery packs in the vehicle, and no pie in sky hope for future automation of an insanely hard problem. Electric railways are the most optimized form of land-based transportation, and arguably the most overall. Electric, Automated trains still don't reach people's homes. You are not going to change the fundamental idea of living in suburbs or the country. In fact, current events make living away from the cities a good option. The cost of rail in the USA is too high even for states that really want it. It will be much easier to alter how the USA builds roads to add cues for automation than try to add rail everywhere. Electric, automated buses will replace passenger rail and be much more flexible for changing trends in where people are going. Automated cars will make personal transport to individual destinations much more efficient and easy. Other than the metro systems that exist, there won't be much place for passenger rail.

bavcyc 6y ago

The long trains you mention are called unit trains. They move from point A to point B as one unit. Typically the unit trains will be of all one type, e.g. tank, grain, container. The trains with mixed types can be unit trains but they can also have intermediate stops where cars are added or dropped off. The optimizations the rail companies perform to maximize the freight movement (and profit) is very interesting.

deepnotderp 6y ago

Correct! American freight railroads are the most efficient in the world, Europe by contrast, chose to move passengers, but this has meant that more freight has been pushed off the rails onto the road.

LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
By what measure? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_usage#Freight_rail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_usag... edit: Furthermore https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3098444/china-planning-high-speed-rail-freight-network-help-e-commerce https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3098444/chi... From the point of view of a SimCity/Civilization/Railroad Tycoon player, they seem to do everything right. While the rest of the world is engaging in useless Command&Conquer-like clashes, always on RED ALERT!
- deepnotderp 6y ago
  By cost per ton mile, in which US freight rail is cheaper than almost any other country in the world, including China. China's rail freight, as a percent of intercity freight has been steadily declining [0], in large part due to development on high speed rail, which has hurt freight rail networks. [0] https://www.mdpi.com/sustainability/sustainability-12-00583/article_deploy/html/images/sustainability-12-00583-g002-550.jpg https://www.mdpi.com/sustainability/sustainability-12-00583/... https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/12/2/583/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/12/2/583/htm
  - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
    Hm. Ok. Seems like almost everywhere, when road freight grows in relation to rail freight, even when rail freight grows by absolute tonnage transported. I think it slowed a little bit because "change of management" due to imprisonment of [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Zhijun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Zhijun and consecutive dissolvement of [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Railways_(China) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Railways_(China) transforming that into [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railway under supervision of the [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Railway_Administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Railway_Administratio... Imagine what would happen if Warren Buffet suddenly got jailed (for instance caused by Cancel Culture), along with about 40 to 50 others from higher management in connected companies, leading to break up of Berkshire Hathaway, Inc? Not exactly bye bye BNSF, but not good either (for a while). Just handwaving here, but the timeframe fits IMO.

LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago

That is at least for Germany not entirely correct. If some train from some logistics provider embedded in some just-in-time supply chain scheme is delayed for what ever reason, it is prioritised (Though this is new, since maybe about 5 years?). Which means you are standing still for maybe 15 to 20 minutes somewhere 'out there' between stations, and can enjoy 3 freight trains overtaking you, and maybe horses, cows, or just the noise protection walls. Chaos! Anyways, this chaos is self inflicted by building back switches, which would enable a more granular partition of the tracks, and more flexible passing of trains. All in all, our railways are indeed "'ne Lachnummer"(laughing stock). OTHO not so ridiculous at all, considering the massive build back of infrastructure.