6 ms·

> Hindu nationalism is just like any nationalism. There is a fundamental difference Indian nationalism and other countries nationalism. Indian nationalism is a

> Hindu nationalism is just like any nationalism. There is a fundamental difference Indian nationalism and other countries nationalism. Indian nationalism is all about bringing back the "varna system" which advocates stratification of society based on the birth and access to education is only allowed for the brahmins(priestly caste). This was the system implemented strictly before the Britishers arrived to India. No country to my knowledge does denies education to its own people in the name of nationalism. In contrast in other countries the nationalism is not about stratification of society or honoring privilege by birth.

ravibhatt 6y ago
You seem to know more about the natives it seems; where are you quoting this from? "Indian nationalism is all about bringing back the "varna system" " ---- You have done a Phd in the subject-- any links?
- garyfirestorm 6y ago
  citation would be great
- john4532452 6y ago
  I assume you are probably an NRI. This is well know to natives. Most of the BJP leaders are former RSS members including modi. Source https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29593336 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29593336 RSS ideology is to make india a hindu religous state. Hinduism is based on the vedic books which advocate varna system.
  - ravibhatt 6y ago
    Amazing to see an authentic source like the BBC! It is the same publication that cannot complete any ISRO/Science related article without highlighting first how poor india is! So, if your source about RSS is BBC then good luck about having a non-biased conversation. You are part of the cliched narrative builders.
    - srean 6y ago
      > It is the same publication that cannot complete any ISRO/Science related article without highlighting first how poor india is! That's ad hominem. If you have a specific point mention that. If the only document you will accept is from RSS mouthpieces then there is no point in the conversation.
    - detaro 6y ago
      Funny, just to check I picked 5 random BBC articles about ISRO off Google search. 3 didn't mention anything like that, one said arguments that India shouldn't invest in space tech are misguided and one cited low salaries as part of why the project was so impressively cheap compared to western programs. That doesn't seem particularly worthy of outrage?
    - nl 6y ago
      Here's an Indian source for the fact that Modi was a RSS member. I'm not aware that is seriously disputed anyway? https://www.google.com/amp/s/indianexpress.com/article/trending/narendra-modi-shares-his-story-to-humans-of-bombay-became-full-time-rss-pracharak-while-cleaning-its-office-5551521/lite/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/indianexpress.com/article/trend...
rusticpenn 6y ago
Hindu Nationalism and Indian Nationalism are not the same thing.
malware7 6y ago
Any source on the motives of Indian nationalism for the "strict implementation" of varna system?
- john4532452 6y ago
  Most of the BJP leaders are former RSS members including modi. Source https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29593336 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29593336 RSS ideology is to make india a hindu religous state. Hinduism is based on the vedic books which advocate varna system.
  - malware7 6y ago
    Varna system is based on Manusmriti which came long after vedas.
  - manishsharan 6y ago
    > Hinduism is based on the vedic books which advocate varna system You are wrong. The Vedas have nothing to do with the varna (caste) system. The caste system came much later and they have nothing to do with the foundations of Hinduism. There are several sects of Hinduism which explicitly reject the caste system. Look up Arya Samaj etc. I have a feeling have I wasted my time in engaging with facts for someone whose mind is already made up about my faith.
    - srean 6y ago
      It think it is intellectually dishonest to cast Arya Samaj in the same category as Vedic Hinduism. Considering Hinduism's age it was an very recent revisionist reform that happened yesterday. It was nowhere close to main stream Hinduism and wasn't the only such attempt at a reform. Existence of such reforms does not take away the well entrenched nature of the caste system and how far back it goes in time.
  - arjun1296 6y ago
    No one elected RSS leader. People have elected BJP leaders. There is a spectrum of right-wingness b/w BJP and RSS. They don't really want Hindu Rashtra. Most of them issue Hindu Rashtra rhetoric for mass-appeal just like every politicians use "God" in western democracies.
pratik661 6y ago
Do you have any evidence to back your premise that Indian nationalists want to bring back the varna system? That’s an extraordinary claim that requires sourcing. From what I’ve seen it’s like any other nationalist movement.
- john4532452 6y ago
  Yes. The BJP government is backed by the RSS and most of the members of the BJP party including Modi is former member of RSS. RSS is a religious organization supporting the varna system.
  - malware7 6y ago
    Your opinion is not a valid source.
    - john4532452 6y ago
      https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29593336 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29593336
      - malware7 6y ago
        What is great source! BBC. There is 0 instances of the word "varna" or "caste" on that article.
  - susant321 6y ago
    This is a weird claim. I have never seen any healthy mind supports Varna system in India. Only few delusioned imagine that someone is working towards it. Come on guys!
    - john4532452 6y ago
      No it is not. This is core principle of RSS https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/seeing-the-invisible/rsss-standardised-hinduism-part-3/ https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/seeing-the-invisib...
slevin063 6y ago
Not discounting the negative effects of the nationalism, but I don't think caste system is behind the current rise of nationalism. The prime minister himself is from the lower caste.
- anuraj 6y ago
  Modi himself added his trader community to backward caste for reaping benefits while he was running for CM of Gujarat using BJP govt at centre. Modh-Ghanchis are a middle caste which is a beneficiary of caste system and is by no means an OBC.
- john4532452 6y ago
  > The prime minister himself is from the lower caste. This does not change anything. Modi is just a pawn. He does not have any original ideology, he is there for power. Look at the number of brahmins and non-brahmins in the key position in the BJP. Look at the analysis here https://theprint.in/politics/ambedkar-on-its-agenda-but-bjp-has-little-place-for-dalits-is-still-a-brahmin-baniya-party/91449/ https://theprint.in/politics/ambedkar-on-its-agenda-but-bjp-... If you are still not convinced, look at what "Subramanian swamy" had to say when every one in BJP party was changing their twitter profile last name to "chowkidar"(meaning soldier or protector). He said he is a brahmin and its brahmins duty to advice how the country should be run and not be a soldier as vedas consider brahmins as superior to all the other varnas. https://www.indiatoday.in/elections/lok-sabha-2019/story/cannot-be-chowkidar-i-am-brahmin-subramanian-swamy-narendra-modi-main-bhi-chowkidar-campaign-1485369-2019-03-24 https://www.indiatoday.in/elections/lok-sabha-2019/story/can... The point is the ideology that is driving BJP is all about bringing back the privilege based on the birth.
  - malware7 6y ago
    I like how you skip that the upper-castes who are in power were voted to power by a population which is majority lower-caste. Total upper/forward caste - ~ 29 % OBC + SC + ST - ~71 % BJP(NDA) vote share - 37 % https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Backward_Class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Backward_Class
  - 6y ago
sandworm101 6y ago
>> which advocates stratification of society based on the birth Not a unique to Indian nationalism. American nationalism is very similar. See the "birther" movement. Or the president's push to withdraw birthright citizenship, a concept that would deny far more than just education. Or the references to "anchor babies". The location of one's birthplace, and the birthplace of one's parents, is of fundamental importance in US nationalist movements just as in India.
- oytis 6y ago
  Birthright citizenship is pretty unique to America though. Nowhere in Europe you would find such a thing, although most people won't count Germany, France, Netherlands, Sweden etc. as human right violators.
  - unishark 6y ago
    Also Canada, Mexico, and almost all of South America. Only a few other countries elsewhere, none of them developed.
  - baud147258 6y ago
    Maybe I missed something or forgot how citizenship works here in France (since I learned how it is acquired as a student), but birthright citizenship seems pretty similar to what we have here
    - eli_gottlieb 6y ago
      France has a mixture of jus soli and jus sanguinis, like most countries. Pure jus soli, as in the American case, is in fact quite rare.
    - oytis 6y ago
      Just checked the wiki, looks like France defines something called double jus soli, which means a person who was born in France to a parent who themselves is born in France (even though they might not be a French citizen) gets the citizenship. That's a bit closer to birthright citizenship that what we have in Germany, but nowhere as liberal as USA laws, which give citizenship to anyone born in the USA even if their parents entered the country one day before the birth and left next day after the birth. That is something that doesn't exist anywhere in Europe to my knowledge.
arjun1296 6y ago
Where and when did this govt deny education? Do you have any evidence or are you just grappling with straws here?
- john4532452 6y ago
  Its trying its best https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-tn-govt-scraps-order-that-announced-public-exams-for-grade-5th-8th-2812178 https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-tn-govt-scraps-order-t...
  - arjun1296 6y ago
    Isn't that the responsibility of the state-govt to ensure that people are educated? What is central-govt doing to "DENY" education and that based on "caste" ? I still didn't find any evidence.
    - john4532452 6y ago
      The idea of the new policy of introducing public exams for the 5th and 8th grade is to discourage students to go to school. Once the govt school has the exams they are forced to fail few percentage of the students and very likely they will discontinue the school. This is the reason in the past till 9th students were promoted in tamilnadu which has the highest college goers because the students who were not performing in the mid school got a chance later. The important question is what is driving this educational policy. Its the belief of the vedas that for a society to function well not everyone should have the same opportunity and access to education. Everyone has duty based on the family they were born and should not be allowed to change.
      - arjun1296 6y ago
        Holy moly. You are grasping at straws here. Exam is not a discouragement. Its rather a test of progress. TN has been plaguing with higher dropout rates for a while. >Forced to fail Seriously ??? Expecting students to pass a standard test is not denying education. If students fail the tests, they FAIL. That is the purpose. Its not the responsibility of the govt to be "PASS" the student. Rather its the responsibility of the govt to provide education institutional access. What is the point of letting students PASS if they cant even do basic math and communicate. Unskilled graduates is one of the highest ranked problem that the govt is facing in getting them employed. And I don't know why even without providing any shred of evidence you keep bring Veda,Caste and Hindutva into discussion into Educational Policy. What is your point here?
john_max_1 6y ago
> Indian nationalism is all about bringing back the "varna system" which advocates stratification of society based on the birth Any source of this? Or have we reduce Hacker news to random accusations?

ravibhatt 6y ago

You seem to know more about the natives it seems; where are you quoting this from? "Indian nationalism is all about bringing back the "varna system" " ---- You have done a Phd in the subject-- any links?

garyfirestorm 6y ago
citation would be great
john4532452 6y ago
I assume you are probably an NRI. This is well know to natives. Most of the BJP leaders are former RSS members including modi. Source https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29593336 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29593336 RSS ideology is to make india a hindu religous state. Hinduism is based on the vedic books which advocate varna system.
- ravibhatt 6y ago
  Amazing to see an authentic source like the BBC! It is the same publication that cannot complete any ISRO/Science related article without highlighting first how poor india is! So, if your source about RSS is BBC then good luck about having a non-biased conversation. You are part of the cliched narrative builders.
  - srean 6y ago
    > It is the same publication that cannot complete any ISRO/Science related article without highlighting first how poor india is! That's ad hominem. If you have a specific point mention that. If the only document you will accept is from RSS mouthpieces then there is no point in the conversation.
  - detaro 6y ago
    Funny, just to check I picked 5 random BBC articles about ISRO off Google search. 3 didn't mention anything like that, one said arguments that India shouldn't invest in space tech are misguided and one cited low salaries as part of why the project was so impressively cheap compared to western programs. That doesn't seem particularly worthy of outrage?
  - nl 6y ago
    Here's an Indian source for the fact that Modi was a RSS member. I'm not aware that is seriously disputed anyway? https://www.google.com/amp/s/indianexpress.com/article/trending/narendra-modi-shares-his-story-to-humans-of-bombay-became-full-time-rss-pracharak-while-cleaning-its-office-5551521/lite/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/indianexpress.com/article/trend...

rusticpenn 6y ago

Hindu Nationalism and Indian Nationalism are not the same thing.

malware7 6y ago

Any source on the motives of Indian nationalism for the "strict implementation" of varna system?

john4532452 6y ago
Most of the BJP leaders are former RSS members including modi. Source https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29593336 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29593336 RSS ideology is to make india a hindu religous state. Hinduism is based on the vedic books which advocate varna system.
- malware7 6y ago
  Varna system is based on Manusmriti which came long after vedas.
- manishsharan 6y ago
  > Hinduism is based on the vedic books which advocate varna system You are wrong. The Vedas have nothing to do with the varna (caste) system. The caste system came much later and they have nothing to do with the foundations of Hinduism. There are several sects of Hinduism which explicitly reject the caste system. Look up Arya Samaj etc. I have a feeling have I wasted my time in engaging with facts for someone whose mind is already made up about my faith.
  - srean 6y ago
    It think it is intellectually dishonest to cast Arya Samaj in the same category as Vedic Hinduism. Considering Hinduism's age it was an very recent revisionist reform that happened yesterday. It was nowhere close to main stream Hinduism and wasn't the only such attempt at a reform. Existence of such reforms does not take away the well entrenched nature of the caste system and how far back it goes in time.
- arjun1296 6y ago
  No one elected RSS leader. People have elected BJP leaders. There is a spectrum of right-wingness b/w BJP and RSS. They don't really want Hindu Rashtra. Most of them issue Hindu Rashtra rhetoric for mass-appeal just like every politicians use "God" in western democracies.

pratik661 6y ago

Do you have any evidence to back your premise that Indian nationalists want to bring back the varna system? That’s an extraordinary claim that requires sourcing. From what I’ve seen it’s like any other nationalist movement.

john4532452 6y ago
Yes. The BJP government is backed by the RSS and most of the members of the BJP party including Modi is former member of RSS. RSS is a religious organization supporting the varna system.
- malware7 6y ago
  Your opinion is not a valid source.
  - john4532452 6y ago
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29593336 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29593336
    - malware7 6y ago
      What is great source! BBC. There is 0 instances of the word "varna" or "caste" on that article.
- susant321 6y ago
  This is a weird claim. I have never seen any healthy mind supports Varna system in India. Only few delusioned imagine that someone is working towards it. Come on guys!
  - john4532452 6y ago
    No it is not. This is core principle of RSS https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/seeing-the-invisible/rsss-standardised-hinduism-part-3/ https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/seeing-the-invisib...

slevin063 6y ago

Not discounting the negative effects of the nationalism, but I don't think caste system is behind the current rise of nationalism. The prime minister himself is from the lower caste.

anuraj 6y ago
Modi himself added his trader community to backward caste for reaping benefits while he was running for CM of Gujarat using BJP govt at centre. Modh-Ghanchis are a middle caste which is a beneficiary of caste system and is by no means an OBC.
john4532452 6y ago
> The prime minister himself is from the lower caste. This does not change anything. Modi is just a pawn. He does not have any original ideology, he is there for power. Look at the number of brahmins and non-brahmins in the key position in the BJP. Look at the analysis here https://theprint.in/politics/ambedkar-on-its-agenda-but-bjp-has-little-place-for-dalits-is-still-a-brahmin-baniya-party/91449/ https://theprint.in/politics/ambedkar-on-its-agenda-but-bjp-... If you are still not convinced, look at what "Subramanian swamy" had to say when every one in BJP party was changing their twitter profile last name to "chowkidar"(meaning soldier or protector). He said he is a brahmin and its brahmins duty to advice how the country should be run and not be a soldier as vedas consider brahmins as superior to all the other varnas. https://www.indiatoday.in/elections/lok-sabha-2019/story/cannot-be-chowkidar-i-am-brahmin-subramanian-swamy-narendra-modi-main-bhi-chowkidar-campaign-1485369-2019-03-24 https://www.indiatoday.in/elections/lok-sabha-2019/story/can... The point is the ideology that is driving BJP is all about bringing back the privilege based on the birth.
- malware7 6y ago
  I like how you skip that the upper-castes who are in power were voted to power by a population which is majority lower-caste. Total upper/forward caste - ~ 29 % OBC + SC + ST - ~71 % BJP(NDA) vote share - 37 % https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Backward_Class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Backward_Class
- 6y ago

sandworm101 6y ago

>> which advocates stratification of society based on the birth Not a unique to Indian nationalism. American nationalism is very similar. See the "birther" movement. Or the president's push to withdraw birthright citizenship, a concept that would deny far more than just education. Or the references to "anchor babies". The location of one's birthplace, and the birthplace of one's parents, is of fundamental importance in US nationalist movements just as in India.

oytis 6y ago
Birthright citizenship is pretty unique to America though. Nowhere in Europe you would find such a thing, although most people won't count Germany, France, Netherlands, Sweden etc. as human right violators.
- unishark 6y ago
  Also Canada, Mexico, and almost all of South America. Only a few other countries elsewhere, none of them developed.
- baud147258 6y ago
  Maybe I missed something or forgot how citizenship works here in France (since I learned how it is acquired as a student), but birthright citizenship seems pretty similar to what we have here
  - eli_gottlieb 6y ago
    France has a mixture of jus soli and jus sanguinis, like most countries. Pure jus soli, as in the American case, is in fact quite rare.
  - oytis 6y ago
    Just checked the wiki, looks like France defines something called double jus soli, which means a person who was born in France to a parent who themselves is born in France (even though they might not be a French citizen) gets the citizenship. That's a bit closer to birthright citizenship that what we have in Germany, but nowhere as liberal as USA laws, which give citizenship to anyone born in the USA even if their parents entered the country one day before the birth and left next day after the birth. That is something that doesn't exist anywhere in Europe to my knowledge.

arjun1296 6y ago

Where and when did this govt deny education? Do you have any evidence or are you just grappling with straws here?

john4532452 6y ago
Its trying its best https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-tn-govt-scraps-order-that-announced-public-exams-for-grade-5th-8th-2812178 https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-tn-govt-scraps-order-t...
- arjun1296 6y ago
  Isn't that the responsibility of the state-govt to ensure that people are educated? What is central-govt doing to "DENY" education and that based on "caste" ? I still didn't find any evidence.
  - john4532452 6y ago
    The idea of the new policy of introducing public exams for the 5th and 8th grade is to discourage students to go to school. Once the govt school has the exams they are forced to fail few percentage of the students and very likely they will discontinue the school. This is the reason in the past till 9th students were promoted in tamilnadu which has the highest college goers because the students who were not performing in the mid school got a chance later. The important question is what is driving this educational policy. Its the belief of the vedas that for a society to function well not everyone should have the same opportunity and access to education. Everyone has duty based on the family they were born and should not be allowed to change.
    - arjun1296 6y ago
      Holy moly. You are grasping at straws here. Exam is not a discouragement. Its rather a test of progress. TN has been plaguing with higher dropout rates for a while. >Forced to fail Seriously ??? Expecting students to pass a standard test is not denying education. If students fail the tests, they FAIL. That is the purpose. Its not the responsibility of the govt to be "PASS" the student. Rather its the responsibility of the govt to provide education institutional access. What is the point of letting students PASS if they cant even do basic math and communicate. Unskilled graduates is one of the highest ranked problem that the govt is facing in getting them employed. And I don't know why even without providing any shred of evidence you keep bring Veda,Caste and Hindutva into discussion into Educational Policy. What is your point here?

john_max_1 6y ago

> Indian nationalism is all about bringing back the "varna system" which advocates stratification of society based on the birth Any source of this? Or have we reduce Hacker news to random accusations?