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Clearly, we should aim for a less ambitious goal: ultra-compact self driving vehicles on dedicated and physically separated lanes, where cars cannot be encounte

by yholio 6y ago

Clearly, we should aim for a less ambitious goal: ultra-compact self driving vehicles on dedicated and physically separated lanes, where cars cannot be encountered unless it's their fault, similar to bike and tram lines. This could increase city trafic capacity by an order of magnitude in congested central zones and suplement public transport in suburban, dispersed areas that cannot be properly served by buses. And it could be done today, with simple algorithms: stay in your lane, coordinate with other vehicles and the trafic lights, and when anything that looks like an obstacle is in front, brake.

paxys 6y ago
I don't see how setting up an entire new parallel road network all over the world is "less ambitious". Some of the best funded cities in this country aren't even able to lay a few miles of fiber for broadband internet.
- yholio 6y ago
  Well, it would be the same network, with some road space dedicated to cars being repurposed for public transit. Cities do this all the time for buses.
  - paxys 6y ago
    Cities usually go as far as having dedicated lanes for buses on a few main thoroughfares. That is a far cry from having a self driving car not encounter any human driver during the drive from my home to my office or the grocery store, for example.
    - yholio 6y ago
      The goal is not to never encounter a car, but that the encounter is mediated with very robust and proven technology that is compatible with both human and current level AI, like a V2X enabled trafic light or a steel bollard. A car can still hit the pod if it disobeys the red light, but the driver would be culpable and the incident itself would be similar to a car hitting, say, a bike - not the fault of the bike. As for the density of such infrastructure, you don't need it on every street, just within a short walking distance to be practical, a few hundred meters maybe. Once you can reach the hail point, it can take you non-stop to any other in the area served, so something like 30 Km/h top speed can go a long way.
lightgreen 6y ago
> dedicated and physically separated lanes We already have trams.
- yholio 6y ago
  They can route people from fixed point A to point B, and some locations along a predetermined rute from A to B. Personal rapid transit allows a Many to Many mapping, just like cars.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - lightgreen 6y ago
    OK, that many-to-many thing may still use rails, which is 100 times easier to implement (autopilot part) than self-driving cars on dedicated lanes.
    - yholio 6y ago
      Yes, the auto-pilot is easy on rails (Morgantown built one in 1975), but rails are expensive, many to many rail networks are even more expensive, and grade separated rail networks are insanely expensive. The Morgantown system final price was 12 million 1975 dollars per mile. So by using advanced self-driving concepts (but not yet full self-driving alongside human drivers), you can repurpose much of the existing road space for personal public transit, without creating completely new infrastructure.
sien 6y ago
There are a lot of things that are slow shuttle pods around the place. They have been deployed on several continents. https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/17/17859112/self-driving-cars-shuttle-pods-delivery-services https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/17/17859112/self-driving-car... Is that what you mean?
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
My father's a civil engineer, and has told me they've been trying to do this since the 70s. The original plans were to put a magnetic strip beneath one lane of our freeways that could allow simple lane-keeping and some basic communication to keep the cars properly spaced, then raise the speed limit up 100+ mph for those lanes. The problem is, once you ask anything of government infrastructure, it may take forever. I could maybe see it eventually happening if these companies lobby heavily for toll lanes, where autonomous zero-passenger vehicles pay the bulk of the fees.
- scoopertrooper 6y ago
  In fairness the solution proposed by OP would require the same level of infrastructure investment as a carpool lane.
Gibbon1 6y ago
Reminds me of the The Morgantown Personal Rapid Transit system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaSaWfw07Sw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaSaWfw07Sw If you used battery electric cars would likely be a lot cheaper to build. Speaking of electric, in Taiwan they have occasional dedicated paths for scooters. With the advent of battery power bicycles grade separated bike lanes seem more useful. Because battery power eliminates the hill problem.

by yholio 6y ago

paxys 6y ago

I don't see how setting up an entire new parallel road network all over the world is "less ambitious". Some of the best funded cities in this country aren't even able to lay a few miles of fiber for broadband internet.

yholio 6y ago
Well, it would be the same network, with some road space dedicated to cars being repurposed for public transit. Cities do this all the time for buses.
- paxys 6y ago
  Cities usually go as far as having dedicated lanes for buses on a few main thoroughfares. That is a far cry from having a self driving car not encounter any human driver during the drive from my home to my office or the grocery store, for example.
  - yholio 6y ago
    The goal is not to never encounter a car, but that the encounter is mediated with very robust and proven technology that is compatible with both human and current level AI, like a V2X enabled trafic light or a steel bollard. A car can still hit the pod if it disobeys the red light, but the driver would be culpable and the incident itself would be similar to a car hitting, say, a bike - not the fault of the bike. As for the density of such infrastructure, you don't need it on every street, just within a short walking distance to be practical, a few hundred meters maybe. Once you can reach the hail point, it can take you non-stop to any other in the area served, so something like 30 Km/h top speed can go a long way.

lightgreen 6y ago

> dedicated and physically separated lanes We already have trams.

yholio 6y ago
They can route people from fixed point A to point B, and some locations along a predetermined rute from A to B. Personal rapid transit allows a Many to Many mapping, just like cars.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- lightgreen 6y ago
  OK, that many-to-many thing may still use rails, which is 100 times easier to implement (autopilot part) than self-driving cars on dedicated lanes.
  - yholio 6y ago
    Yes, the auto-pilot is easy on rails (Morgantown built one in 1975), but rails are expensive, many to many rail networks are even more expensive, and grade separated rail networks are insanely expensive. The Morgantown system final price was 12 million 1975 dollars per mile. So by using advanced self-driving concepts (but not yet full self-driving alongside human drivers), you can repurpose much of the existing road space for personal public transit, without creating completely new infrastructure.

sien 6y ago

There are a lot of things that are slow shuttle pods around the place. They have been deployed on several continents. https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/17/17859112/self-driving-cars-shuttle-pods-delivery-services https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/17/17859112/self-driving-car... Is that what you mean?

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago

My father's a civil engineer, and has told me they've been trying to do this since the 70s. The original plans were to put a magnetic strip beneath one lane of our freeways that could allow simple lane-keeping and some basic communication to keep the cars properly spaced, then raise the speed limit up 100+ mph for those lanes. The problem is, once you ask anything of government infrastructure, it may take forever. I could maybe see it eventually happening if these companies lobby heavily for toll lanes, where autonomous zero-passenger vehicles pay the bulk of the fees.

scoopertrooper 6y ago
In fairness the solution proposed by OP would require the same level of infrastructure investment as a carpool lane.

Gibbon1 6y ago

Reminds me of the The Morgantown Personal Rapid Transit system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaSaWfw07Sw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaSaWfw07Sw If you used battery electric cars would likely be a lot cheaper to build. Speaking of electric, in Taiwan they have occasional dedicated paths for scooters. With the advent of battery power bicycles grade separated bike lanes seem more useful. Because battery power eliminates the hill problem.