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I am not surprised. This is a competition between Tesla and Google, technology companies. I never saw Uber, a services company, as being part of this race.

ajkjk 6y ago
That's a weird take. How come Tesla gets to be a technology company but Uber is a services company?
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Uber has yet to show a vehicle with any semblance of reliable autonomy. Tesla has billions of experience miles at Level 2 autonomy (Navigate on Autopilot is close to, but not quite, level 3 autonomy).
  - justapassenger 6y ago
    Level 2 has 0 semblance of reliable autonomy. Those are completely different problems.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      It is a defined level of vehicle autonomy by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE). https://www.sae.org/news/2019/01/sae-updates-j3016-automated-driving-graphic https://www.sae.org/news/2019/01/sae-updates-j3016-automated...
      - maxerickson 6y ago
        I think they mean the green bits there are the part where the car can be relied on to drive by itself (with the blue bits requiring constant attention). Arguing about what to call it is boring. Is Tesla close to having a system that can drive without attention, decide it isn't sure what to do and safely request driver attention? Or does it just have the bit that can successfully navigate a lot of situations?
        toomuchtodo 6y ago
        Having driven across the US almost 30k miles on Navigate On Autopilot in our Teslas, I’d argue the former (“Is Tesla close to having a system that can drive without attention, decide it isn't sure what to do and safely request driver attention?”). Attention is given, but intervention is rare, even in construction zones (only done when zones are inactive, not with workers present for obvious reasons). Interstate to interstate transitions, passing of slow vehicles without our intervention (“lane changes without confirmation” feature) is mostly flawless. Edit: if I didn’t make it clear, Tesla vehicles safely hand over responsibility to the driver when path planning confidence has been lost. If you don’t take over, the vehicle comes to a stop with the hazards on. If you haven’t, I recommend taking a free test drive yourself to better understand the system constraints and UX.
        maxerickson 6y ago
        If the system/software to safely hand over control isn't present in the vehicle, what does driving 30k miles demonstrate about how close they are to deploying it? Much of the distinction between level 2 and level 3 is that the vehicle reliably hands over control. Successfully navigating situations doesn't provide much information about how close that capability might be.
        justapassenger 6y ago
        > Tesla vehicles safely hand over responsibility to the driver when path planning confidence has been lost You've been lucky then, not to experience phantom breaking, cutting off other cars when changing lanes or fire trucks stopped partially in your lane.
        maxerickson 6y ago
        Level 2 means the driver always has responsibility. It's good that the Tesla system stops making inputs when it doesn't know what to do. That's different than the Tesla system having full control and safely notifying the occupant that they need to start driving.
      - phire 6y ago
        I personally believe that level 3 is completely useless. It requires the driver to be completely aware and ready to take over the driving with a second notice whenever the car gets in over it's head. It seems like level 3 is more dangerous than a 100% manual car. Even high-end level 2 seems dangerous. Until we get self driving cars to level 4, were they don't require the driver to play attention, I don't think self driving cars should be on the road.
- DevKoala 6y ago
  It’s just my perception, but Tesla and Google both have track records of developing new technology IP to overcome their challenges. Uber’s record is not the same, they don’t have any hard to reproduce software or technology IP at the core of their business. Their strength is the brand that has quickly entrenched itself in many cities fighting public legislation to satisfy its goals.
- beambot 6y ago
  One company builds a ride hailing app while the other builds one of the premier, high-performance EVs in the world with significant levels of driver assistance, over the air updates, and world-class onboard perception that industry incumbents readily admit is "years" ahead of their own development. How exactly would you characterize the comparison?
  - judge2020 6y ago
    Uber is more of a tech company in that their entire value is based on internet connectivity (while Tesla could take a 99% market cap hit and still put together metal on an assembly line), but Uber is less impressive since it's just an app and an API connecting drivers to people and sometimes throwing a restaurant in the mix.
    - maxlamb 6y ago
      People forget these days that technology (i.e. “tech companies”) does not equate to the internet, which is a just small subset. Technology is defined as “the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, especially in industry.”
    - beambot 6y ago
      maxlamb captured my sentiment exactly... tech is not synonymous with "internet connectivity". Modern vehicles (ICE or EV) are vastly more sophisticated than "putting together metal on an assembly line" -- they're modern marvels of all the physical sciences: chemistry, thermodynamics, materials science, electronics, mechanics, aerodynamics, wireless connectivity, reliability, safety, real-time controls, computer vision, sensing, and on & on & on. Vehicles are vastly more "technological" than most mobile phone apps, especially one like Uber. Pure software companies may (rightfully) fetch higher valuations, but that's simply due to the nature of their economics: higher margins, pricing power (oligopoly?), and negligible incremental unit costs.
justapassenger 6y ago
It maybe competition between Tesla and Google, one day in far away future. But so far, Tesla is dead last in self-driving cars. They some cool driver-aid systems, but their self-driving tech is still being written and rewritten, and didn't even begin any tests on the roads.
- revscat 6y ago
  And yet there are tens (hundreds?) of thousands of drivers who use Tesla’s Autopilot every day, myself included, without incident and to great benefit.
  - justapassenger 6y ago
    Which is great. But it doesn't change the fact, that it's not self driving car.
    - revscat 6y ago
      Your assertion that they are “dead last” remains ridiculous given the millions of self-driving miles their cars have driven.
      - justapassenger 6y ago
        It’s as much self driving as me saying that my dog understands English because he’s excited when I say “walk”.
        revscat 6y ago
        Oh. You’re one of those. Ok. Elon is a fraud, Tesla doesn’t sell vehicles, Autopilot doesn’t work, and ICE cars are the future. Hail Putin.
        dang 6y ago
        Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, and please don't cross into personal attack. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Hypx 6y ago
All attempts at self-driving cars are a failure so far. There are no exceptions. If Uber is struggling, they're all struggling. I expect similar if not worse stories coming out for the rest of them.
- tehjoker 6y ago
  It's kind of grim, but so far Uber and Tesla are the only ones to have killed people, and the Tesla case is more ambiguous. There's clearly big problems at Uber compared with the others, though I too think that the tech is further in the future than people were saying a couple years ago.
  - Hypx 6y ago
    Waymo and Cruise are being much more careful. Consequently, they’re finding out that self-driving cars cannot be deployed yet without being dangerous to people. It’s not a surprise that Uber and Tesla have killed people.

ajkjk 6y ago

That's a weird take. How come Tesla gets to be a technology company but Uber is a services company?

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Uber has yet to show a vehicle with any semblance of reliable autonomy. Tesla has billions of experience miles at Level 2 autonomy (Navigate on Autopilot is close to, but not quite, level 3 autonomy).
- justapassenger 6y ago
  Level 2 has 0 semblance of reliable autonomy. Those are completely different problems.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    It is a defined level of vehicle autonomy by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE). https://www.sae.org/news/2019/01/sae-updates-j3016-automated-driving-graphic https://www.sae.org/news/2019/01/sae-updates-j3016-automated...
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      I think they mean the green bits there are the part where the car can be relied on to drive by itself (with the blue bits requiring constant attention). Arguing about what to call it is boring. Is Tesla close to having a system that can drive without attention, decide it isn't sure what to do and safely request driver attention? Or does it just have the bit that can successfully navigate a lot of situations?
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        Having driven across the US almost 30k miles on Navigate On Autopilot in our Teslas, I’d argue the former (“Is Tesla close to having a system that can drive without attention, decide it isn't sure what to do and safely request driver attention?”). Attention is given, but intervention is rare, even in construction zones (only done when zones are inactive, not with workers present for obvious reasons). Interstate to interstate transitions, passing of slow vehicles without our intervention (“lane changes without confirmation” feature) is mostly flawless. Edit: if I didn’t make it clear, Tesla vehicles safely hand over responsibility to the driver when path planning confidence has been lost. If you don’t take over, the vehicle comes to a stop with the hazards on. If you haven’t, I recommend taking a free test drive yourself to better understand the system constraints and UX.
        maxerickson 6y ago
        If the system/software to safely hand over control isn't present in the vehicle, what does driving 30k miles demonstrate about how close they are to deploying it? Much of the distinction between level 2 and level 3 is that the vehicle reliably hands over control. Successfully navigating situations doesn't provide much information about how close that capability might be.
        justapassenger 6y ago
        > Tesla vehicles safely hand over responsibility to the driver when path planning confidence has been lost You've been lucky then, not to experience phantom breaking, cutting off other cars when changing lanes or fire trucks stopped partially in your lane.
        maxerickson 6y ago
        Level 2 means the driver always has responsibility. It's good that the Tesla system stops making inputs when it doesn't know what to do. That's different than the Tesla system having full control and safely notifying the occupant that they need to start driving.
    - phire 6y ago
      I personally believe that level 3 is completely useless. It requires the driver to be completely aware and ready to take over the driving with a second notice whenever the car gets in over it's head. It seems like level 3 is more dangerous than a 100% manual car. Even high-end level 2 seems dangerous. Until we get self driving cars to level 4, were they don't require the driver to play attention, I don't think self driving cars should be on the road.
DevKoala 6y ago
It’s just my perception, but Tesla and Google both have track records of developing new technology IP to overcome their challenges. Uber’s record is not the same, they don’t have any hard to reproduce software or technology IP at the core of their business. Their strength is the brand that has quickly entrenched itself in many cities fighting public legislation to satisfy its goals.
beambot 6y ago
One company builds a ride hailing app while the other builds one of the premier, high-performance EVs in the world with significant levels of driver assistance, over the air updates, and world-class onboard perception that industry incumbents readily admit is "years" ahead of their own development. How exactly would you characterize the comparison?
- judge2020 6y ago
  Uber is more of a tech company in that their entire value is based on internet connectivity (while Tesla could take a 99% market cap hit and still put together metal on an assembly line), but Uber is less impressive since it's just an app and an API connecting drivers to people and sometimes throwing a restaurant in the mix.
  - maxlamb 6y ago
    People forget these days that technology (i.e. “tech companies”) does not equate to the internet, which is a just small subset. Technology is defined as “the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, especially in industry.”
  - beambot 6y ago
    maxlamb captured my sentiment exactly... tech is not synonymous with "internet connectivity". Modern vehicles (ICE or EV) are vastly more sophisticated than "putting together metal on an assembly line" -- they're modern marvels of all the physical sciences: chemistry, thermodynamics, materials science, electronics, mechanics, aerodynamics, wireless connectivity, reliability, safety, real-time controls, computer vision, sensing, and on & on & on. Vehicles are vastly more "technological" than most mobile phone apps, especially one like Uber. Pure software companies may (rightfully) fetch higher valuations, but that's simply due to the nature of their economics: higher margins, pricing power (oligopoly?), and negligible incremental unit costs.

justapassenger 6y ago

It maybe competition between Tesla and Google, one day in far away future. But so far, Tesla is dead last in self-driving cars. They some cool driver-aid systems, but their self-driving tech is still being written and rewritten, and didn't even begin any tests on the roads.

revscat 6y ago
And yet there are tens (hundreds?) of thousands of drivers who use Tesla’s Autopilot every day, myself included, without incident and to great benefit.
- justapassenger 6y ago
  Which is great. But it doesn't change the fact, that it's not self driving car.
  - revscat 6y ago
    Your assertion that they are “dead last” remains ridiculous given the millions of self-driving miles their cars have driven.
    - justapassenger 6y ago
      It’s as much self driving as me saying that my dog understands English because he’s excited when I say “walk”.
      - revscat 6y ago
        Oh. You’re one of those. Ok. Elon is a fraud, Tesla doesn’t sell vehicles, Autopilot doesn’t work, and ICE cars are the future. Hail Putin.
        dang 6y ago
        Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, and please don't cross into personal attack. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Hypx 6y ago

All attempts at self-driving cars are a failure so far. There are no exceptions. If Uber is struggling, they're all struggling. I expect similar if not worse stories coming out for the rest of them.

tehjoker 6y ago
It's kind of grim, but so far Uber and Tesla are the only ones to have killed people, and the Tesla case is more ambiguous. There's clearly big problems at Uber compared with the others, though I too think that the tech is further in the future than people were saying a couple years ago.
- Hypx 6y ago
  Waymo and Cruise are being much more careful. Consequently, they’re finding out that self-driving cars cannot be deployed yet without being dangerous to people. It’s not a surprise that Uber and Tesla have killed people.