3 ms·

It's too bad Apple had to scrap the plans to switch to ZFS back in the late oughts. We could have been here like 10 years ago!

yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
With OpenZFS, we still could (and I believe, can, just unofficially).
throw0101a 6y ago
"had to" could be too strong a phrase, but not entirely wrong in a way: >> Apple can currently just take the ZFS CDDL code and incorporate it (like they did with DTrace), but it may be that they wanted a "private license" from Sun (with appropriate technical support and indemnification), and the two entities couldn't come to mutually agreeable terms. > I cannot disclose details, but that is the essence of it. * https://marc.info/?l=zfs-discuss&m=125642378308127 https://marc.info/?l=zfs-discuss&m=125642378308127 * https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2009/10/apple-abandons-zfs-on-mac-os-x-project-over-licensing-issues/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2009/10/apple-abandons-zfs-o... There was a NetApp-Sun legal spat going on due to NetApp's WAFL patents (Sun won IIRC), and indemnification could have been a source of tension.
pfranz 6y ago
My understanding is that while ZFS might be a great fit on the desktop, but it's way too RAM hungry for phones/ipads. Maybe with Apple contribution it could work better on mobile? Maybe I'm just ignorant of different tuning or features that could be disabled? I've only used it in rather simple scenarios. APFS was pretty explicitly designed for mobile, so I wouldn't be surprised if ZFS had been adopted on desktop they still made APFS for mobile.
- happymellon 6y ago
  I use ZFS on my RaspberryPi. It works great even in lower RAM situations.
  - pfranz 6y ago
    Apple has historically be very stingy about RAM in iPhones. It looks like modern RaspberryPis today have 2, 4, or 8gb. The current-gen iPhone SE has 3gb, 11 standard/pro/max have 4gb. They're in the same ballpark. So it is possible, but Apple is so incredibly focused on mobile I can see them still investing in a custom filesystem focused on SSD, low memory overhead, per-file encryption, firmlinks, and whatever custom stuff they add for system updates, securing the boot volume, etc.
    - happymellon 6y ago
      Maybe, but that didn't stop them from ZFS on the Mac.
- centimeter 6y ago
  These days it works great on low ram devices. My router runs ZFS on openbsd and uses maybe a 1-200 hundred megs for FS stuff, at most.
  - Tom4hawk 6y ago
    I've tried to look it up and it seems that ZFS doesn't work on OpenBSD. Is it some new development?
    - centimeter 6y ago
      Oops, I meant FreeBSD, haha.
      - Tom4hawk 6y ago
        Oh, makes sense. Thanks for clarification!

yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago

With OpenZFS, we still could (and I believe, can, just unofficially).

throw0101a 6y ago

"had to" could be too strong a phrase, but not entirely wrong in a way: >> Apple can currently just take the ZFS CDDL code and incorporate it (like they did with DTrace), but it may be that they wanted a "private license" from Sun (with appropriate technical support and indemnification), and the two entities couldn't come to mutually agreeable terms. > I cannot disclose details, but that is the essence of it. * https://marc.info/?l=zfs-discuss&m=125642378308127 https://marc.info/?l=zfs-discuss&m=125642378308127 * https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2009/10/apple-abandons-zfs-on-mac-os-x-project-over-licensing-issues/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2009/10/apple-abandons-zfs-o... There was a NetApp-Sun legal spat going on due to NetApp's WAFL patents (Sun won IIRC), and indemnification could have been a source of tension.

pfranz 6y ago

My understanding is that while ZFS might be a great fit on the desktop, but it's way too RAM hungry for phones/ipads. Maybe with Apple contribution it could work better on mobile? Maybe I'm just ignorant of different tuning or features that could be disabled? I've only used it in rather simple scenarios. APFS was pretty explicitly designed for mobile, so I wouldn't be surprised if ZFS had been adopted on desktop they still made APFS for mobile.

happymellon 6y ago
I use ZFS on my RaspberryPi. It works great even in lower RAM situations.
- pfranz 6y ago
  Apple has historically be very stingy about RAM in iPhones. It looks like modern RaspberryPis today have 2, 4, or 8gb. The current-gen iPhone SE has 3gb, 11 standard/pro/max have 4gb. They're in the same ballpark. So it is possible, but Apple is so incredibly focused on mobile I can see them still investing in a custom filesystem focused on SSD, low memory overhead, per-file encryption, firmlinks, and whatever custom stuff they add for system updates, securing the boot volume, etc.
  - happymellon 6y ago
    Maybe, but that didn't stop them from ZFS on the Mac.
centimeter 6y ago
These days it works great on low ram devices. My router runs ZFS on openbsd and uses maybe a 1-200 hundred megs for FS stuff, at most.
- Tom4hawk 6y ago
  I've tried to look it up and it seems that ZFS doesn't work on OpenBSD. Is it some new development?
  - centimeter 6y ago
    Oops, I meant FreeBSD, haha.
    - Tom4hawk 6y ago
      Oh, makes sense. Thanks for clarification!