4 ms·

The Hanging Gardens of Babylon

69 points by quickfox 6y ago

ncmncm 6y ago
Apparently no contemporary sources place the Gardens at Babylon. The smart money is betting they were at Nineveh, instead.
- eternalban 6y ago
  Smart money would be looking into irrigation infrastructure and history of its development in Mesopotamia. They had to raise water for a "hanging" garden. That implies some sort of pump technology.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    They used Archimedes screws, as noted in the article. https://www.amazon.com/dp/0199662266/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/0199662266/ is a very good book about the current state of research into the Hanging Gardens. As ncmncm notes, there is strong evidence that Babylon never had any such thing, but Nineveh did.
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    Nineveh, not coincidentally, apparently had the first elevated aqueducts. With arches.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
  Here is an article discussing it more in depth. It does seem like Nineveh is the better candidate. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2020/07-08/know-where-7-wonders-ancient-world-except-one-hanging-gardens-babylon/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2020/07-...
- arbitrage 6y ago
  Not a lot of records survived the bronze age collapse & its extended aftermath. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
    What you said is true. However, the Assyrian Empire and NeoBabylonian Empire, are both Iron Age empires that emerged after the Bronze Age Collapse. So any sources about the Hanging Gardens of Babylon would not have been affected by the Bronze Age Collapse.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    > Not a lot of records survived the bronze age collapse & its extended aftermath. This is completely untrue. We have more bronze age records than we have manpower to translate them. We also have many tells that are going unexcavated. Bronze age records are not at all difficult to find. They are plentiful, largely due to being nearly indestructible when fired. (Early records were generally not fired intentionally, but they would be when a city was sacked. Later iron age records were intentionally fired.) > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. This is also untrue. Particularly in this case, where the absence of evidence is very strong evidence of absence. I'll quote from the book I mentioned sidethread: > But it is not just a question of denying Nebuchadnezzar his rightful place as builder of the World Wonder on the suspect testimony of much later sources. As luck would have it, among the many building records of Nebuchadnezzar that have come to light from Babylon and other Babylonian cities, not least is the great East India House Inscription on stone which describes the building of his palace. The king was far from reticent about his achievements in building: the marvellous walls of the city as well as the wonderful temples and palaces; but he never mentions a garden. > Later, Greek writers describe Babylon without referring to the garden. Chief among them is Herodotus, writing in the time of Artaxerxes I (464-424 BC) who would surely have mentioned that the city contained a World Wonder, whether he had seen it himself, or had relied on hearsay for his information. Much later the Roman writer Pliny the Elder described the city, again without referring to the garden. Equally surprising, the patchwork of texts in several different languages and widely divergent versions now known as the Alexander Romance does not mention it even though the final days and premature death of Alexander the Great in Babylon gave every opportunity to incorporate a reference at the very least to one of the world's marvels. There is no mention in the writings of Plutarch, or of Quintus Curtius Rufus, when they refer to Babylon. Nor does the Book of Daniel mention it; Nebuchadnezzar went up on to the roof of the royal palace to admire his city, but the tale does not mention the supposed garden. Nebuchadnezzar is not alone, by the way, in providing exhaustive lists of things he built in large royal inscriptions. Not only do all Mesopotamian rulers commemorate their notable achievements this way -- construction was an activity holy to Marduk, the city god of Babylon.
jonshariat 6y ago
I love learning how they might have pumped water up to the top using an"Archimedes Screw" [1] 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhNEB_mWvBw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhNEB_mWvBw
josmala 6y ago
I think the Babylonians used impaling instead of hanging.

69 points by quickfox 6y ago

Apparently no contemporary sources place the Gardens at Babylon. The smart money is betting they were at Nineveh, instead.

eternalban 6y ago
Smart money would be looking into irrigation infrastructure and history of its development in Mesopotamia. They had to raise water for a "hanging" garden. That implies some sort of pump technology.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  They used Archimedes screws, as noted in the article. https://www.amazon.com/dp/0199662266/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/0199662266/ is a very good book about the current state of research into the Hanging Gardens. As ncmncm notes, there is strong evidence that Babylon never had any such thing, but Nineveh did.
- ncmncm 6y ago
  Nineveh, not coincidentally, apparently had the first elevated aqueducts. With arches.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
Here is an article discussing it more in depth. It does seem like Nineveh is the better candidate. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2020/07-08/know-where-7-wonders-ancient-world-except-one-hanging-gardens-babylon/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2020/07-...
arbitrage 6y ago
Not a lot of records survived the bronze age collapse & its extended aftermath. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
  What you said is true. However, the Assyrian Empire and NeoBabylonian Empire, are both Iron Age empires that emerged after the Bronze Age Collapse. So any sources about the Hanging Gardens of Babylon would not have been affected by the Bronze Age Collapse.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  > Not a lot of records survived the bronze age collapse & its extended aftermath. This is completely untrue. We have more bronze age records than we have manpower to translate them. We also have many tells that are going unexcavated. Bronze age records are not at all difficult to find. They are plentiful, largely due to being nearly indestructible when fired. (Early records were generally not fired intentionally, but they would be when a city was sacked. Later iron age records were intentionally fired.) > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. This is also untrue. Particularly in this case, where the absence of evidence is very strong evidence of absence. I'll quote from the book I mentioned sidethread: > But it is not just a question of denying Nebuchadnezzar his rightful place as builder of the World Wonder on the suspect testimony of much later sources. As luck would have it, among the many building records of Nebuchadnezzar that have come to light from Babylon and other Babylonian cities, not least is the great East India House Inscription on stone which describes the building of his palace. The king was far from reticent about his achievements in building: the marvellous walls of the city as well as the wonderful temples and palaces; but he never mentions a garden. > Later, Greek writers describe Babylon without referring to the garden. Chief among them is Herodotus, writing in the time of Artaxerxes I (464-424 BC) who would surely have mentioned that the city contained a World Wonder, whether he had seen it himself, or had relied on hearsay for his information. Much later the Roman writer Pliny the Elder described the city, again without referring to the garden. Equally surprising, the patchwork of texts in several different languages and widely divergent versions now known as the Alexander Romance does not mention it even though the final days and premature death of Alexander the Great in Babylon gave every opportunity to incorporate a reference at the very least to one of the world's marvels. There is no mention in the writings of Plutarch, or of Quintus Curtius Rufus, when they refer to Babylon. Nor does the Book of Daniel mention it; Nebuchadnezzar went up on to the roof of the royal palace to admire his city, but the tale does not mention the supposed garden. Nebuchadnezzar is not alone, by the way, in providing exhaustive lists of things he built in large royal inscriptions. Not only do all Mesopotamian rulers commemorate their notable achievements this way -- construction was an activity holy to Marduk, the city god of Babylon.

jonshariat 6y ago

I love learning how they might have pumped water up to the top using an"Archimedes Screw" [1] 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhNEB_mWvBw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhNEB_mWvBw

josmala 6y ago

I think the Babylonians used impaling instead of hanging.