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This is going to sound a little touchy-feely, but I'm going to write it anyway. There are a lot of games in the world, and what the author describes here is on

This is going to sound a little touchy-feely, but I'm going to write it anyway. There are a lot of games in the world, and what the author describes here is one of them. And you can play this game if you want to, and you might even win at it. But it's worth remembering that you have one existence, one set of time and energy to spend in this life. If you decide to look at the world this way, and operate with this mindset, then that's how you're choosing to spend it. You will not "make it" some day and suddenly reverse course. More and more these days I think that people who are unhappy in the modern world live in prisons of their own making. Yes, a lot of people think this way and work this way. I think it's good to know the game is out there, and that you'll encounter people with this mindset. But you do not have to play the same game. Yes, you probably need a job. Yes, your material rewards might be lesser if you don't engage in this kind of stuff. But you can still live a perfectly good life—perhaps even a better life—by building it around other principles. I don't mean this to be a lecture, or condescending, or anything other than a reminder that just because you have to work, it doesn't mean you're stuck playing the games other people are playing.

ramraj07 6y ago
This comes from someone who threw away a decade of my life because I didn't want to play the academia game - there's a sweet middle spot, play the game as long as: 1. It's fun at least on some days 2. You don't win at the expense of someone else's undeserved loss 3. You can actually switch off from it You have to play the game no matter where you are, even foraging in the forest. There's no concept of living life without rules, so might as well embrace the reality and keep it under your control instead of the other way around.
kyuudou 6y ago
Reminds me of the sound advice I am glad I got early in life (whilst still in college) from a book called "Work Less, Play More" by a petroleum geologist named Steven Catlin[1]. Play the games on your terms if at all possible. And save yo monnay! 1: http://www.swt.org/play.htm http://www.swt.org/play.htm (brief and pithy overview there; should be all you need but I recommend reading the whole thing in a weekend)
- war1025 6y ago
  > brief and pithy overview I've seen people using "pithy" around here a lot lately. Is being "pithy" a good thing? My main previous exposure to the word is in regards to woodworking, where the pith is generally weak wood that you want to avoid when making things.
  - roflc0ptic 6y ago
    Usually it’s good. It means short and to the point in most contexts. Maybe things can be too pithy, if they’re so short that they’re incomprehensible. But it’s much better than meandering and off topic. (This response was not pithy)
    - treis 6y ago
      I wouldn't say it's necessarily good. If you think of TV when a character says something as they're leaving a room and everyone goes "ooohhhh". That's a pithy comment. Something like: "Hey baby, you looking for a real man for tonight?" "Yeah, let me know if you see one!" Good to be pithy when you're dealing with obnoxious drunks in a bar. Maybe not so much when talking with your boss.
  - devonbleak 6y ago
    1.(of language or style) concise and forcefully expressive. It might be slightly pejorative. I usually take it to mean slightly hyperbolic, not necessarily meant to be taken completely literally.
  - gmadsen 6y ago
    its usually a complement when describing a poet or writer. Meaning precise and meaningful. such as a pithy Vonnegut quote.
- kyuudou 6y ago
  I meant pithy in a positive light - i.e. short and sweet, just the facts please.
karolist 6y ago
This rings true. There's a YouTube channel where a man with a campervan goes out camping in the nature and cooks food, sips whiskey and looks into the horizon. So simple yet so attractive and there's many comments of older people saying they can no longer do that but live it through these videos. I'd rather be doing that on my weekends than busting my back to get that promo. One life so we might as well just live it.
- XargonEnder 6y ago
  Which channel are you referring to? I'm a fan of Steve Wallis and would love more of this content to live through vicariously.
  - karolist 6y ago
    It's "Living The Van Life". I'll check out Steve Wallis, thanks!
mightybyte 6y ago
Well put. I completely agree. One thing I'd like to add though is that choosing to not play this game does not mean there's no path to large impact / success by conventional metrics. I came away from this article with the distinct feeling that it is focused on big corporate jobs. That certainly is where a large segment of workers are at, but it's not the only place you can be. In particular, I think that in the early stage startup world you don't get a lot of what the article is talking about. In early stage startups decisions made by rank-and-file employees can have very tangible and significant impact on the time scale of weeks to months, not quarters to years like this article seems focused on. Does this early stage startup world have its own set of issues? Of course. But there do exist good opportunities where culture is healthy and good work gets rewarded. I really like this article's take on this general notion. http://www.samkyle.com/work-for-yourself/ http://www.samkyle.com/work-for-yourself/
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- alexryan 6y ago
  I'd really like to believe this. Thus far, I've seen the same kind of ruthless self-interest in startups as well. If you know of anywhere this is NOT the case, please share as I would love to work in an environment of people with good character who are genuinely seeking to do good. This is more important to me than money.
- qznc 6y ago
  Is it really? In the startup world you don't "switch projects" every 18 months. Instead you pivot to a different business plan or start a new company. Grow headcount faster than baseline applies as well.
- mightybyte 6y ago
  @alexryan's dead sibling comment... I actually work at one of those companies. At the moment we're not hiring, although we may be in the future.
vhiremath4 6y ago
This is incredible advice. The company I'm currently CTO at I had founded when I was 23. It's now a multi-hundred million dollar company, growing very quickly, and about to cross 100 employees. I've learned a lot along the way, but I've especially learned from managing parents. As I started managing parents and realizing how much they base their own values on how their children would think of them and their life principles, it became apparent to me that this is how I want to live my life too. I have struggled with depression and anxiety from an early age, so, when I start attaching to an overly-cynical view of how the world operates, I ask myself "Do I need to believe this is how the world operates? How does this serve me? Would I want my children to embody this world view?". If the answer is no, then I try to have my world view serve me and end up much happier and actually much more effective in the long run. I've come to realize you have to be a bit of a pessimist when understanding how things "really work", but going about your life as an optimist and working around the structures is just as important if not more so for people like myself who were born with a broken operating system.
- andreilys 6y ago
  "I ask myself "Do I need to believe this is how the world operates? How does this serve me? Would I want my children to embody this world view?". If the answer is no, then I try to have my world view serve me and end up much happier and actually much more effective in the long run." It's a nice thought, but proves to be difficult to implement long term. Sure you might convince yourself for a few months that things are like X, ignoring the evidence that they are Y. That's your prerogative, you can operate in whatever reality you wish. Eventually reality catches up to you and you have to pay the piper.
  - throwaheyy 6y ago
    It works the other way too. You can bullshit and operate politics without the skill, until one day reality catches up to you and people see your ”work” for what it really is.
    - rizpanjwani 6y ago
vikiomega9 6y ago
I would love to hear about other models of the world that are employed to think about it. My view is that there's about 5 mental models given how mundane human life is in general (I'm speaking in hyperbole of course).
- XargonEnder 6y ago
  I'd love to hear more. What are the five?
  - vikiomega9 6y ago
    1. This blog post 2. https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-... 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_firm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_firm I don't know the others :)
mgraczyk 6y ago
Also important to remember that winning this game results in a massive difference in income and purchasing power. Two promotions at a FAANG can be the difference between 200k and 600k in pre-tax compensation. That might translate into a difference in retirement age from 70 to 35, depending on your life goals and rate of spending.
- ip26 6y ago
  The tremendous amount of ink spilled over FIRE leads me to believe few who play the game well enough to snag those two promotions will manage to escape their golden handcuffs. The more the press talks about it, the more unusual it is. See shark attacks vs automobile fatalities.
  - screye 6y ago
    That's the thing about FIRE. It is always a guy in his late 30s with 2 kids and a big house in a metro city trying to sell FIRE to new grads. IMO, fire becomes impossible the second you have kids. Because all parents I know have some kind of super natural urge to provide better for their children. A house in a better school district, university education and the knowledge that they can have more if they work more, will inevitably stop people from making that early exit they so yearn for. This becomes even more evident once you get used to roaming in 'high achieving' circles, because the second you RE, you and your children get pushed to the bottom of that social structure (in terms of material possessions) FIRE also has a wierd hypocrisy to it. It advocates for avoiding life style creep. But, if you avoid lifestyle creep then you can pursue any of the things you would have after retirement as a primary source of income anyways. Especially if you don't expect to take on fresh debt. (new house, new car etc) That being said, I live a FIRE esque lifestyle too. Because the core tenents make sense even without wanting to FIRE. But, every tech guy in their 20s seems to want to Fire, but I haven't met a single person in their 40s that actually has.
    - ivalm 6y ago
      I know a few people in their 50s who managed to FIRE. I think a lot of people want to do it earlier but then life gets in the way. The ones that I know who actually retired early did so when their company got acquired or ipoed (most were director level, one of the people was a very high level IC/eng fellow @ unicorn). Basically there was a push and instead of staying in re-org or finding yet another opportunity they said "retirement!" and had the money to make it reality. The guy who was IC actually still codes/commits to OSS; I guess he just doesn't code for money anymore.
phonebucket 6y ago
> This is going to sound a little touchy-feely, but I'm going to write it anyway. Yeah, it's quite touchy feely. But quite possibly completely right too.
LordFast 6y ago
Everything in life, including life itself, is temporary. Except for two facts: - Nobody has more than 24 hours in a day. - Nobody escapes death.
- derjames 6y ago
  You forgot taxes. Everybody pay taxes.
  - mercat 6y ago
    well, not really
bonoboTP 6y ago
You are right, but there is a sober middle ground. There is a famous quote by Hungarian writer Mikszáth saying "It is not enough to be honorable, one also has to appear so". You don't have to go all-in in "the game", it's enough to strategically adjust even minor things to make sure your work doesn't go unnoticed, that you aren't spending effort and emotional energy on things that will ultimately not lead to anything. If you're doing it for your own enjoyment, to feel good about accomplishments or just scratch your problem-solving itch, great. But if you're naive and want to be a "good boy" who helps others because and who just naturally takes on work that is unrewarding in itself, but you feel you need to play nice etc, then perhaps this view can help. People will step over you and you will not understand why things are happening. You will feel betrayed when it's not really betrayal, just "the game" being played. Be aware of it and make a conscious choice of when to play it and when not to play it. But when you don't play it, be aware of the trade-offs.
- bumby 6y ago
  With all due respect to Mikszáth, you don’t have full control over how you “appear” to others. Sure, we can influence our appearance with our actions but it’s also impacted by things outside our control. People will always view our actions through their unique lens biased by their own experiences, thoughts, mental models etc. I think the Stoics would argue it’s better to just focus on what’s the right thing to do regardless of how it “appears” externally
  - ivalm 6y ago
    > I think the Stoics would argue it’s better to just focus on what’s the right thing to do regardless of how it “appears” externally But Stoics also do not pursue "fame and fortune." The advice is fundamentally not directed at Stoics.
    - bumby 6y ago
      Fair point, but I was following the GP comment theme that “playing the game” for fame and fortune may not be the best path
alexryan 6y ago
If you really think about it, in a zero-sum game, those who are born with an inability to experience affective empathy have a competitive advantage. Over time, they will outbreed those who are constrained by conscience. What happens when an ecosystem accumulates too many predators? The ecosystem destabilizes. Does this not explain the present state of the world?
nostrademons 6y ago
In my experience, a lot of people play the game so they can go play other games outside of work. Most of us are stuck working in some form of organization-pays-for-our-labor employment. As long as you're there, you might as well learn and play by the rules as they actually are, not as you wish them to be. For the 8 hours when your butt is in the chair at work, make them effective 8 hours, such that you can maximize your remuneration according to whatever system the company has set up to evaluate performance. Then you can go take that money and buy freedom to do other stuff in the rest of your time - or even opt out entirely for a few years. I know a few people for whom work is their calling. The crucial thing to remember there is that they're still playing in somebody else's game, who oftentimes can pay them less because it's not a game to them. There's perhaps less psychic stress in this, but also less financial remuneration, which can foreclose on some other things in life that you may care about.
- p1esk 6y ago
  This is only relevant if you need a lot of money to play other games outside of work. Most people don't.
  - jasode 6y ago
    >This is only relevant if you need a lot of money to play other games outside of work. Most people don't. I didn't downvote you but you misinterpreted what he wrote. The end of the 2nd paragraph explained that "other games" means the other more desirable non-work activities people would rather do: "play other games outside of work" == "buy freedom to do other stuff in the rest of your time" This does apply to most people.
    - p1esk 6y ago
      Maybe I'm still misinterpreting it, but to me it seems like he was talking about activities after work, not instead of work. So if you want to, say, regularly dine at the finest restaurants, buy expensive toys, and live in a big mansion, then sure you need to know how to play the game, but if you're an average Joe, and just want to go to a bar to hang out with friends, or watch a movie, and maybe have a hobby like restoring vintage cars in your garage, then you probably don't need to make that much money.
calcsam 6y ago
Also note: the author isn't actually advocating playing these games. Just describing how they work. ----- "[These rituals] are macro-useful in a sense that they allow humans to generate billions of dollars of productive activity. But that doesn't mean that you should be spending your time on them." "Assuming you're good, if you choose to work in a big company the right strategy is to work 9-5, not stress about anything, and collect your paycheck. Climbing the ladder seems extremely suboptimal to me." https://twitter.com/spakhm/status/1310583419756187653?s=20 https://twitter.com/spakhm/status/1310583419756187653?s=20 https://twitter.com/spakhm/status/1310584277650739200?s=20 https://twitter.com/spakhm/status/1310584277650739200?s=20
hslee16 6y ago
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
drukenemo 6y ago
I really like this post and your way of thinking.
Nbox9 6y ago
“There are a million ways to make money.” I’m a highly skilled, highly experienced individual. I never have to do anything I don’t want to in order to keep a roof over my head, food on my table, and even a handful of expensive hobbies. I once played a different game, for about five years. I became really good at it, and I made a lot of money playing it. Like you describe, I was in a modern prison of my own making.
silicon2401 6y ago
Similarly, for some of us the game that the author describes is way more appealing than a more straightforward 'work hard and earn your way up'. Not everybody in tech cares about software; I'm just in it for the money. Reading stuff like this makes career development actually sound exciting. What looks like prison for you can be freedom for someone else
- bumby 6y ago
  I don’t intend for this to sound judge-y but I’m curious if not being internally motivated for the work impacts your motivation, particularly with work that is essential for the goal but not particularly high status/visibility. Do you find motivation waning?
  - silicon2401 6y ago
    When X allows you to achieve goal Y, you can get a lot of X done even if you have no personal interest in X. If you're poor and have few options, most of the time you're gonna do whatever job you can get because you just don't have a choice (speaking from earlier life experience). For some people it's being a waiter, janitor, working at mcdonald's, etc. Very few people breaking their backs on construction or 16 hour catering gigs grew up fantasizing about being a laborer, but they still manage to pull off incredible feats of endurance and work. Why would software or other office jobs be any different? In short, I work in software to get paid well to retire asap. I've never needed work to find fulfillment and growth in life, so I'm never short on motivation because I can't wait to stop having to work.
    - bumby 6y ago
      To extend your analogy, I’ve found a vast difference in quality between construction contractors who view their work as a profession/craft vs those who view it as a job/means to an end. The irony is those in the latter category have complained to me that they find it hard to find work, those in the former always seem to be in demand and making money. That’s to the heart of my question, I was wondering if that kind of motivation inadvertently can affect the ends you’re aiming at. Regardless, I’m happy you don’t need work to be fulfilled and seem to be on a good path for what you’re after
TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
> But it's worth remembering that you have one existence, one set of time and energy to spend in this life. If you decide to look at the world this way, and operate with this mindset, then that's how you're choosing to spend it. One other perspective: Yes, the ideologies we subscribe to will highly influence what we see and experience. However! You can choose to experiment / experience quite the many ways or living and being in the decades you're likely to he here. Each day is a new opportunity to act differently if whatever you were doing yesterday doesn't serve you and those around you.
jxcole 6y ago
As a counterpoint, I believe that I essentially behave the way you are describing, frequently doing things like going to meetings and saying "this big project won't work, it will harm the end user" which doesn't make you well liked. While I may firmly believe what I am saying, I'm sitting there getting passed up by promotions. Eventually I'll be the lowest ranked engineer with 50 years of experience in the world. I guarantee you, playing by the rules will not make you happy.
- p1esk 6y ago
  Saying something like that in a work meeting is a bad idea even if you don't want to play any games. That's just basic human psychology, and if you can't deal with it perhaps you shouldn't be promoted.
cactus2093 6y ago
What I think you're getting at here is that it's up to each person to choose whether they want to chase the promotion and higher pay or whether they want to focus on just doing meaningful work. Perhaps not everyone will come to this cynical of a conclusion for themselves, but in my own experience this way of thinking is almost always a false dichotomy. There's no law that says pay vs meaningfulness of the work is a zero-sum trade-off, but a lot of people giving career advice take it as almost a given that this is true. There is exciting work to do and problems to solve in the higher paying, higher levels in a big company (by that I mean, senior or staff engineer, manager or sr manager. I don't have any hands-on experience at the higher executive levels, I'm still chasing those promotions myself). And there are endless things to be frustrated with at the smallest of startups even when there's no bureaucracy or perceivable "office politics" to worry about. My own takeaway has been, at the end of the day this is still a job. In almost any job I can find positive ways to contribute, opportunities to learn, and make my own self fulfillment. So I might as well do that at the job that pays 3x more. In tech that difference in pay between a couple of bands of promotions or between a startup and big co, can be absolutely massive. Don't feel bad about chasing the higher paying roles, that increase in income can buy you a lot of optionality. Maybe you can retire early, or take long years of sabbatical in the middle of your career, or devote a year or two to starting your own startup in the future without worrying about not taking a paycheck. This may ultimately be a lot more satisfying than shuffling through low-paying jobs searching for roles where you'll be perfectly happy in spite of that, because you may never find it anyway.
- bauerd 6y ago
  >it's up to each person to choose whether they want to chase the promotion and higher pay or whether they want to focus on just doing meaningful work There's also something in between: Work as a means to other ends, not seeking personal fulfilment in one's day job. All these discussions and articles I read here about career advancement and what not seem so incredibly foreign to me.
TuringNYC 6y ago
Note sure if you read the article the same way I did -- but I saw it as something that people do -- not something the author was necessarily recommending. He's saying that is how people get ahead. I agree with you that it is a game. It isnt a game that I play, but it is a popular game. Denying that many people do this seems like wishful thinking or denial of reality. The easiest way to see this is the typical corporate track -- you're told that if you work hard, every 2 or 3 yrs you get promoted. You do the math internally in your head and realize you'd get to -- say SVP at age 50. Then you look around and there are a bunch of 35yo SVPs. Once can see that and realize there are shortcuts/cheats in the game, or one can ignore it and hope for advancement (only to get to age 50 and realize it was all for nothing.) I think what the author provides is of great value -- they are trying to show you a reality you may not see. The value is not to encourage you to do it, but perhaps - to get you to step off some hamster wheel of death - to get you to realize you need to be an entrepreneur and your own boss - to get you to weed out these types of players if you are already an entrepreneur and your own boss - to get you to find companies where these things are not the case (hint: check out the executive team on Linked In -- are they under qualified? run away from this company. Are they hired from outside rather going up the ranks? be careful)
forgotmypw17 6y ago
I want to second what you're saying here. I used to feel pretty down about my work because I felt like even though I was making good money and progressing career-wise, the things I was working on were not contributing anything positive to the world, and would also be scrapped for a new iteration using the tech-du-jour within a year or two, and nobody would ever see them again. If I wanted to have a more lasting impact and more reach, I'd have to compete with thousands for a spot somewhere like Yahoo or Google, and again, whatever I was working on would still be scrapped within a year or two. This is why I dropped out of working for money and started working on my own passion projects. I'm very lucky, because I remember what it was like working on passion projects before I entered the workforce, so I at least knew roughly what I was looking for.
megablast 6y ago
So you are reading this, thinking it’s advice? I am reading this, thinking it’s a failure in many companies and needs to be addressed.
RangerScience 6y ago
> You will not "make it" some day and suddenly reverse course. There's a bunch of ways this effect shows up all across life: "How things start is generally how they continue" (rails feels like rails in basically every part, from the stuff a rank beginner does to diving into the guts for advanced usage) "This was my last job. Every job was 'my last job'." https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneLastJob https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneLastJob "A hippy in motion stays in motion, a hippy at rest stays at rest." (the mindset with which you start a thing tends to persist) And, I don't know if there's a name for it, but the game of Go is legendary for players being able to replay games exactly as long as they can remember the first few moves. If the conditions and players remain the same, why would the game go any differently? > live in prisons of their own making I have found nothing more painful or exhausting than fighting oneself; when we hold ourselves back - put ourselves in prisons of our own making - we're both the occupant fighting the bars and the bars fighting the occupant. IMO something like RSI also shows up if you do that long enough. One way I've found out of it is - and this might sound a little weird - apply a bit of Flatland. A circle is only a wall while you're in 2d; add a dimension (a direction orthogonal to the current ones) and walk around it. (another way is talk therapy; and meditation trains the "muscles" (and more) that you use for any of this)

ramraj07 6y ago

This comes from someone who threw away a decade of my life because I didn't want to play the academia game - there's a sweet middle spot, play the game as long as: 1. It's fun at least on some days 2. You don't win at the expense of someone else's undeserved loss 3. You can actually switch off from it You have to play the game no matter where you are, even foraging in the forest. There's no concept of living life without rules, so might as well embrace the reality and keep it under your control instead of the other way around.

kyuudou 6y ago

Reminds me of the sound advice I am glad I got early in life (whilst still in college) from a book called "Work Less, Play More" by a petroleum geologist named Steven Catlin[1]. Play the games on your terms if at all possible. And save yo monnay! 1: http://www.swt.org/play.htm http://www.swt.org/play.htm (brief and pithy overview there; should be all you need but I recommend reading the whole thing in a weekend)

war1025 6y ago
> brief and pithy overview I've seen people using "pithy" around here a lot lately. Is being "pithy" a good thing? My main previous exposure to the word is in regards to woodworking, where the pith is generally weak wood that you want to avoid when making things.
- roflc0ptic 6y ago
  Usually it’s good. It means short and to the point in most contexts. Maybe things can be too pithy, if they’re so short that they’re incomprehensible. But it’s much better than meandering and off topic. (This response was not pithy)
  - treis 6y ago
    I wouldn't say it's necessarily good. If you think of TV when a character says something as they're leaving a room and everyone goes "ooohhhh". That's a pithy comment. Something like: "Hey baby, you looking for a real man for tonight?" "Yeah, let me know if you see one!" Good to be pithy when you're dealing with obnoxious drunks in a bar. Maybe not so much when talking with your boss.
- devonbleak 6y ago
  1.(of language or style) concise and forcefully expressive. It might be slightly pejorative. I usually take it to mean slightly hyperbolic, not necessarily meant to be taken completely literally.
- gmadsen 6y ago
  its usually a complement when describing a poet or writer. Meaning precise and meaningful. such as a pithy Vonnegut quote.
kyuudou 6y ago
I meant pithy in a positive light - i.e. short and sweet, just the facts please.

karolist 6y ago

This rings true. There's a YouTube channel where a man with a campervan goes out camping in the nature and cooks food, sips whiskey and looks into the horizon. So simple yet so attractive and there's many comments of older people saying they can no longer do that but live it through these videos. I'd rather be doing that on my weekends than busting my back to get that promo. One life so we might as well just live it.

XargonEnder 6y ago
Which channel are you referring to? I'm a fan of Steve Wallis and would love more of this content to live through vicariously.
- karolist 6y ago
  It's "Living The Van Life". I'll check out Steve Wallis, thanks!

mightybyte 6y ago

Well put. I completely agree. One thing I'd like to add though is that choosing to not play this game does not mean there's no path to large impact / success by conventional metrics. I came away from this article with the distinct feeling that it is focused on big corporate jobs. That certainly is where a large segment of workers are at, but it's not the only place you can be. In particular, I think that in the early stage startup world you don't get a lot of what the article is talking about. In early stage startups decisions made by rank-and-file employees can have very tangible and significant impact on the time scale of weeks to months, not quarters to years like this article seems focused on. Does this early stage startup world have its own set of issues? Of course. But there do exist good opportunities where culture is healthy and good work gets rewarded. I really like this article's take on this general notion. http://www.samkyle.com/work-for-yourself/ http://www.samkyle.com/work-for-yourself/

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
alexryan 6y ago
I'd really like to believe this. Thus far, I've seen the same kind of ruthless self-interest in startups as well. If you know of anywhere this is NOT the case, please share as I would love to work in an environment of people with good character who are genuinely seeking to do good. This is more important to me than money.
qznc 6y ago
Is it really? In the startup world you don't "switch projects" every 18 months. Instead you pivot to a different business plan or start a new company. Grow headcount faster than baseline applies as well.
mightybyte 6y ago
@alexryan's dead sibling comment... I actually work at one of those companies. At the moment we're not hiring, although we may be in the future.

vhiremath4 6y ago

This is incredible advice. The company I'm currently CTO at I had founded when I was 23. It's now a multi-hundred million dollar company, growing very quickly, and about to cross 100 employees. I've learned a lot along the way, but I've especially learned from managing parents. As I started managing parents and realizing how much they base their own values on how their children would think of them and their life principles, it became apparent to me that this is how I want to live my life too. I have struggled with depression and anxiety from an early age, so, when I start attaching to an overly-cynical view of how the world operates, I ask myself "Do I need to believe this is how the world operates? How does this serve me? Would I want my children to embody this world view?". If the answer is no, then I try to have my world view serve me and end up much happier and actually much more effective in the long run. I've come to realize you have to be a bit of a pessimist when understanding how things "really work", but going about your life as an optimist and working around the structures is just as important if not more so for people like myself who were born with a broken operating system.

andreilys 6y ago
"I ask myself "Do I need to believe this is how the world operates? How does this serve me? Would I want my children to embody this world view?". If the answer is no, then I try to have my world view serve me and end up much happier and actually much more effective in the long run." It's a nice thought, but proves to be difficult to implement long term. Sure you might convince yourself for a few months that things are like X, ignoring the evidence that they are Y. That's your prerogative, you can operate in whatever reality you wish. Eventually reality catches up to you and you have to pay the piper.
- throwaheyy 6y ago
  It works the other way too. You can bullshit and operate politics without the skill, until one day reality catches up to you and people see your ”work” for what it really is.
  - rizpanjwani 6y ago

vikiomega9 6y ago

I would love to hear about other models of the world that are employed to think about it. My view is that there's about 5 mental models given how mundane human life is in general (I'm speaking in hyperbole of course).

XargonEnder 6y ago
I'd love to hear more. What are the five?
- vikiomega9 6y ago
  1. This blog post 2. https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-... 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_firm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_firm I don't know the others :)

mgraczyk 6y ago

Also important to remember that winning this game results in a massive difference in income and purchasing power. Two promotions at a FAANG can be the difference between 200k and 600k in pre-tax compensation. That might translate into a difference in retirement age from 70 to 35, depending on your life goals and rate of spending.

ip26 6y ago
The tremendous amount of ink spilled over FIRE leads me to believe few who play the game well enough to snag those two promotions will manage to escape their golden handcuffs. The more the press talks about it, the more unusual it is. See shark attacks vs automobile fatalities.
- screye 6y ago
  That's the thing about FIRE. It is always a guy in his late 30s with 2 kids and a big house in a metro city trying to sell FIRE to new grads. IMO, fire becomes impossible the second you have kids. Because all parents I know have some kind of super natural urge to provide better for their children. A house in a better school district, university education and the knowledge that they can have more if they work more, will inevitably stop people from making that early exit they so yearn for. This becomes even more evident once you get used to roaming in 'high achieving' circles, because the second you RE, you and your children get pushed to the bottom of that social structure (in terms of material possessions) FIRE also has a wierd hypocrisy to it. It advocates for avoiding life style creep. But, if you avoid lifestyle creep then you can pursue any of the things you would have after retirement as a primary source of income anyways. Especially if you don't expect to take on fresh debt. (new house, new car etc) That being said, I live a FIRE esque lifestyle too. Because the core tenents make sense even without wanting to FIRE. But, every tech guy in their 20s seems to want to Fire, but I haven't met a single person in their 40s that actually has.
  - ivalm 6y ago
    I know a few people in their 50s who managed to FIRE. I think a lot of people want to do it earlier but then life gets in the way. The ones that I know who actually retired early did so when their company got acquired or ipoed (most were director level, one of the people was a very high level IC/eng fellow @ unicorn). Basically there was a push and instead of staying in re-org or finding yet another opportunity they said "retirement!" and had the money to make it reality. The guy who was IC actually still codes/commits to OSS; I guess he just doesn't code for money anymore.

phonebucket 6y ago

> This is going to sound a little touchy-feely, but I'm going to write it anyway. Yeah, it's quite touchy feely. But quite possibly completely right too.

LordFast 6y ago

Everything in life, including life itself, is temporary. Except for two facts: - Nobody has more than 24 hours in a day. - Nobody escapes death.

derjames 6y ago
You forgot taxes. Everybody pay taxes.
- mercat 6y ago
  well, not really

bonoboTP 6y ago

You are right, but there is a sober middle ground. There is a famous quote by Hungarian writer Mikszáth saying "It is not enough to be honorable, one also has to appear so". You don't have to go all-in in "the game", it's enough to strategically adjust even minor things to make sure your work doesn't go unnoticed, that you aren't spending effort and emotional energy on things that will ultimately not lead to anything. If you're doing it for your own enjoyment, to feel good about accomplishments or just scratch your problem-solving itch, great. But if you're naive and want to be a "good boy" who helps others because and who just naturally takes on work that is unrewarding in itself, but you feel you need to play nice etc, then perhaps this view can help. People will step over you and you will not understand why things are happening. You will feel betrayed when it's not really betrayal, just "the game" being played. Be aware of it and make a conscious choice of when to play it and when not to play it. But when you don't play it, be aware of the trade-offs.

bumby 6y ago
With all due respect to Mikszáth, you don’t have full control over how you “appear” to others. Sure, we can influence our appearance with our actions but it’s also impacted by things outside our control. People will always view our actions through their unique lens biased by their own experiences, thoughts, mental models etc. I think the Stoics would argue it’s better to just focus on what’s the right thing to do regardless of how it “appears” externally
- ivalm 6y ago
  > I think the Stoics would argue it’s better to just focus on what’s the right thing to do regardless of how it “appears” externally But Stoics also do not pursue "fame and fortune." The advice is fundamentally not directed at Stoics.
  - bumby 6y ago
    Fair point, but I was following the GP comment theme that “playing the game” for fame and fortune may not be the best path

alexryan 6y ago

If you really think about it, in a zero-sum game, those who are born with an inability to experience affective empathy have a competitive advantage. Over time, they will outbreed those who are constrained by conscience. What happens when an ecosystem accumulates too many predators? The ecosystem destabilizes. Does this not explain the present state of the world?

nostrademons 6y ago

In my experience, a lot of people play the game so they can go play other games outside of work. Most of us are stuck working in some form of organization-pays-for-our-labor employment. As long as you're there, you might as well learn and play by the rules as they actually are, not as you wish them to be. For the 8 hours when your butt is in the chair at work, make them effective 8 hours, such that you can maximize your remuneration according to whatever system the company has set up to evaluate performance. Then you can go take that money and buy freedom to do other stuff in the rest of your time - or even opt out entirely for a few years. I know a few people for whom work is their calling. The crucial thing to remember there is that they're still playing in somebody else's game, who oftentimes can pay them less because it's not a game to them. There's perhaps less psychic stress in this, but also less financial remuneration, which can foreclose on some other things in life that you may care about.

p1esk 6y ago
This is only relevant if you need a lot of money to play other games outside of work. Most people don't.
- jasode 6y ago
  >This is only relevant if you need a lot of money to play other games outside of work. Most people don't. I didn't downvote you but you misinterpreted what he wrote. The end of the 2nd paragraph explained that "other games" means the other more desirable non-work activities people would rather do: "play other games outside of work" == "buy freedom to do other stuff in the rest of your time" This does apply to most people.
  - p1esk 6y ago
    Maybe I'm still misinterpreting it, but to me it seems like he was talking about activities after work, not instead of work. So if you want to, say, regularly dine at the finest restaurants, buy expensive toys, and live in a big mansion, then sure you need to know how to play the game, but if you're an average Joe, and just want to go to a bar to hang out with friends, or watch a movie, and maybe have a hobby like restoring vintage cars in your garage, then you probably don't need to make that much money.

calcsam 6y ago

Also note: the author isn't actually advocating playing these games. Just describing how they work. ----- "[These rituals] are macro-useful in a sense that they allow humans to generate billions of dollars of productive activity. But that doesn't mean that you should be spending your time on them." "Assuming you're good, if you choose to work in a big company the right strategy is to work 9-5, not stress about anything, and collect your paycheck. Climbing the ladder seems extremely suboptimal to me." https://twitter.com/spakhm/status/1310583419756187653?s=20 https://twitter.com/spakhm/status/1310583419756187653?s=20 https://twitter.com/spakhm/status/1310584277650739200?s=20 https://twitter.com/spakhm/status/1310584277650739200?s=20

hslee16 6y ago

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

drukenemo 6y ago

I really like this post and your way of thinking.

Nbox9 6y ago

“There are a million ways to make money.” I’m a highly skilled, highly experienced individual. I never have to do anything I don’t want to in order to keep a roof over my head, food on my table, and even a handful of expensive hobbies. I once played a different game, for about five years. I became really good at it, and I made a lot of money playing it. Like you describe, I was in a modern prison of my own making.

silicon2401 6y ago

Similarly, for some of us the game that the author describes is way more appealing than a more straightforward 'work hard and earn your way up'. Not everybody in tech cares about software; I'm just in it for the money. Reading stuff like this makes career development actually sound exciting. What looks like prison for you can be freedom for someone else

bumby 6y ago
I don’t intend for this to sound judge-y but I’m curious if not being internally motivated for the work impacts your motivation, particularly with work that is essential for the goal but not particularly high status/visibility. Do you find motivation waning?
- silicon2401 6y ago
  When X allows you to achieve goal Y, you can get a lot of X done even if you have no personal interest in X. If you're poor and have few options, most of the time you're gonna do whatever job you can get because you just don't have a choice (speaking from earlier life experience). For some people it's being a waiter, janitor, working at mcdonald's, etc. Very few people breaking their backs on construction or 16 hour catering gigs grew up fantasizing about being a laborer, but they still manage to pull off incredible feats of endurance and work. Why would software or other office jobs be any different? In short, I work in software to get paid well to retire asap. I've never needed work to find fulfillment and growth in life, so I'm never short on motivation because I can't wait to stop having to work.
  - bumby 6y ago
    To extend your analogy, I’ve found a vast difference in quality between construction contractors who view their work as a profession/craft vs those who view it as a job/means to an end. The irony is those in the latter category have complained to me that they find it hard to find work, those in the former always seem to be in demand and making money. That’s to the heart of my question, I was wondering if that kind of motivation inadvertently can affect the ends you’re aiming at. Regardless, I’m happy you don’t need work to be fulfilled and seem to be on a good path for what you’re after

TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago

> But it's worth remembering that you have one existence, one set of time and energy to spend in this life. If you decide to look at the world this way, and operate with this mindset, then that's how you're choosing to spend it. One other perspective: Yes, the ideologies we subscribe to will highly influence what we see and experience. However! You can choose to experiment / experience quite the many ways or living and being in the decades you're likely to he here. Each day is a new opportunity to act differently if whatever you were doing yesterday doesn't serve you and those around you.

jxcole 6y ago

As a counterpoint, I believe that I essentially behave the way you are describing, frequently doing things like going to meetings and saying "this big project won't work, it will harm the end user" which doesn't make you well liked. While I may firmly believe what I am saying, I'm sitting there getting passed up by promotions. Eventually I'll be the lowest ranked engineer with 50 years of experience in the world. I guarantee you, playing by the rules will not make you happy.

p1esk 6y ago
Saying something like that in a work meeting is a bad idea even if you don't want to play any games. That's just basic human psychology, and if you can't deal with it perhaps you shouldn't be promoted.

cactus2093 6y ago

What I think you're getting at here is that it's up to each person to choose whether they want to chase the promotion and higher pay or whether they want to focus on just doing meaningful work. Perhaps not everyone will come to this cynical of a conclusion for themselves, but in my own experience this way of thinking is almost always a false dichotomy. There's no law that says pay vs meaningfulness of the work is a zero-sum trade-off, but a lot of people giving career advice take it as almost a given that this is true. There is exciting work to do and problems to solve in the higher paying, higher levels in a big company (by that I mean, senior or staff engineer, manager or sr manager. I don't have any hands-on experience at the higher executive levels, I'm still chasing those promotions myself). And there are endless things to be frustrated with at the smallest of startups even when there's no bureaucracy or perceivable "office politics" to worry about. My own takeaway has been, at the end of the day this is still a job. In almost any job I can find positive ways to contribute, opportunities to learn, and make my own self fulfillment. So I might as well do that at the job that pays 3x more. In tech that difference in pay between a couple of bands of promotions or between a startup and big co, can be absolutely massive. Don't feel bad about chasing the higher paying roles, that increase in income can buy you a lot of optionality. Maybe you can retire early, or take long years of sabbatical in the middle of your career, or devote a year or two to starting your own startup in the future without worrying about not taking a paycheck. This may ultimately be a lot more satisfying than shuffling through low-paying jobs searching for roles where you'll be perfectly happy in spite of that, because you may never find it anyway.

bauerd 6y ago
>it's up to each person to choose whether they want to chase the promotion and higher pay or whether they want to focus on just doing meaningful work There's also something in between: Work as a means to other ends, not seeking personal fulfilment in one's day job. All these discussions and articles I read here about career advancement and what not seem so incredibly foreign to me.

TuringNYC 6y ago

Note sure if you read the article the same way I did -- but I saw it as something that people do -- not something the author was necessarily recommending. He's saying that is how people get ahead. I agree with you that it is a game. It isnt a game that I play, but it is a popular game. Denying that many people do this seems like wishful thinking or denial of reality. The easiest way to see this is the typical corporate track -- you're told that if you work hard, every 2 or 3 yrs you get promoted. You do the math internally in your head and realize you'd get to -- say SVP at age 50. Then you look around and there are a bunch of 35yo SVPs. Once can see that and realize there are shortcuts/cheats in the game, or one can ignore it and hope for advancement (only to get to age 50 and realize it was all for nothing.) I think what the author provides is of great value -- they are trying to show you a reality you may not see. The value is not to encourage you to do it, but perhaps - to get you to step off some hamster wheel of death - to get you to realize you need to be an entrepreneur and your own boss - to get you to weed out these types of players if you are already an entrepreneur and your own boss - to get you to find companies where these things are not the case (hint: check out the executive team on Linked In -- are they under qualified? run away from this company. Are they hired from outside rather going up the ranks? be careful)

forgotmypw17 6y ago

I want to second what you're saying here. I used to feel pretty down about my work because I felt like even though I was making good money and progressing career-wise, the things I was working on were not contributing anything positive to the world, and would also be scrapped for a new iteration using the tech-du-jour within a year or two, and nobody would ever see them again. If I wanted to have a more lasting impact and more reach, I'd have to compete with thousands for a spot somewhere like Yahoo or Google, and again, whatever I was working on would still be scrapped within a year or two. This is why I dropped out of working for money and started working on my own passion projects. I'm very lucky, because I remember what it was like working on passion projects before I entered the workforce, so I at least knew roughly what I was looking for.

megablast 6y ago

So you are reading this, thinking it’s advice? I am reading this, thinking it’s a failure in many companies and needs to be addressed.

RangerScience 6y ago

> You will not "make it" some day and suddenly reverse course. There's a bunch of ways this effect shows up all across life: "How things start is generally how they continue" (rails feels like rails in basically every part, from the stuff a rank beginner does to diving into the guts for advanced usage) "This was my last job. Every job was 'my last job'." https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneLastJob https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneLastJob "A hippy in motion stays in motion, a hippy at rest stays at rest." (the mindset with which you start a thing tends to persist) And, I don't know if there's a name for it, but the game of Go is legendary for players being able to replay games exactly as long as they can remember the first few moves. If the conditions and players remain the same, why would the game go any differently? > live in prisons of their own making I have found nothing more painful or exhausting than fighting oneself; when we hold ourselves back - put ourselves in prisons of our own making - we're both the occupant fighting the bars and the bars fighting the occupant. IMO something like RSI also shows up if you do that long enough. One way I've found out of it is - and this might sound a little weird - apply a bit of Flatland. A circle is only a wall while you're in 2d; add a dimension (a direction orthogonal to the current ones) and walk around it. (another way is talk therapy; and meditation trains the "muscles" (and more) that you use for any of this)