4 ms·

What a great site, thanks. Really brings home how strange this corner of the market is. Every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from e

by tom_ 6y ago

What a great site, thanks. Really brings home how strange this corner of the market is. Every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, and most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons, and so on. Quite extraordinary, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. It's like their designers want the device to be less useful, not more! Particularly annoying when there's such a wide range of non-split keyboards with nice keyswitches. You've got all the bizarre layouts you can eat, but you still get the option of a more standard one too. I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches.

jrockway 6y ago
People tend to use layers to get at extra keys like F keys, volume keys, etc. I think it goes too far when they omit the number row, but honestly I mostly type numbers in a numpad layer, so I see the appeal. Basically, people see pressing two keys at once as less work than moving their hand off of home row, and being one of those people myself, I think it's the right thing. I fear that the standard keyboard layout was chosen for discoverability, not productivity. Giving your two best fingers (the thumb) one key between them (the space bar) is kind of crazy, in my opinion. Once you accept that your thumbs can do different things, and even many different things, the keyboard layout design space is significantly enhanced. Having said that, I did make myself a split ergonomic keyboard with a full set of keys (107, if I recall correctly). Here's a picture: https://photos.app.goo.gl/XPvTVdwaP2tog8zj6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/XPvTVdwaP2tog8zj6 I ended up not liking the arrows where they were (was used to the Ergodox layout where they are not an inverted T but wrap the big right thumb keys) and stopped using it. Having the number pad was great for Blender, but hard to reach. With cheap keyswitches, cheap microcontrollers, and cheap 3D printers around... there is no reason not to build a keyboard that meets your exact requirements. I use an Ergodox EZ, though, but may experiment more in the future.
selftest 6y ago
If you’re already typing correctly, you’re relying on muscle memory. Adding some layers into the mix isn’t too much of a leap. I would argue that a good split keyboard is much more useful than a standard keyboard; better positioning for ergonomics or desk space, easily stowed when not in use, truly programmable (firmware not software) that works between systems with little or no setup and a keymap that works for the user instead of against. I like having all my often used keys in the home row. I don’t have to move my hands to use arrow keys because I use vim bindings on a layer. Hyphen,underscore, grave and tilde are on the home row, too. I can program a key to be a combination of key presses, too. My workflow is much improved using my own custom keymap and keyboard.
badlucklottery 6y ago
>It's like their designers want the device to be less useful, not more! The main focus of most of these keyboards is ergonomics. Even if it comes at the cost of learnability. This is also why there's a lot of variation. People are dropping and moving keys to deal with things like hand size and existing RSI. >I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. You can probably get someone to 3d print and solder you a one-off keyboard that fits the bill. It's doubtful anyone other than MS will mass produce such a thing though.
animex 6y ago
I've never used a better keyboard other than durability issues. I usually burn through one every couple years. (I game alot)
jwalton 6y ago
> I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. I replaced my MS keyboard with a Kinesis Gaming Edge - it's a pretty good replacement, and I've found being able to separate the two halves of the keyboard and put them about shoulder width apart makes for a very nice typing experience. No numpad, and I'm not a huge fan of the home/end/pgup/pgdown placement, but you can add a numpad in a second later if you want to.
Symbiote 6y ago
> most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons, and so on This is why I made the gallery -- it's an easy way to compare a lot of options, even if not all options have filters. I have just added the C989 Ergo, which was mentioned elsewhere in the discussion. That seems to be the closest mass-produced, mechanical keyboard to the MS Natural: https://c9ergo.com/ https://c9ergo.com/

by tom_ 6y ago

jrockway 6y ago

People tend to use layers to get at extra keys like F keys, volume keys, etc. I think it goes too far when they omit the number row, but honestly I mostly type numbers in a numpad layer, so I see the appeal. Basically, people see pressing two keys at once as less work than moving their hand off of home row, and being one of those people myself, I think it's the right thing. I fear that the standard keyboard layout was chosen for discoverability, not productivity. Giving your two best fingers (the thumb) one key between them (the space bar) is kind of crazy, in my opinion. Once you accept that your thumbs can do different things, and even many different things, the keyboard layout design space is significantly enhanced. Having said that, I did make myself a split ergonomic keyboard with a full set of keys (107, if I recall correctly). Here's a picture: https://photos.app.goo.gl/XPvTVdwaP2tog8zj6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/XPvTVdwaP2tog8zj6 I ended up not liking the arrows where they were (was used to the Ergodox layout where they are not an inverted T but wrap the big right thumb keys) and stopped using it. Having the number pad was great for Blender, but hard to reach. With cheap keyswitches, cheap microcontrollers, and cheap 3D printers around... there is no reason not to build a keyboard that meets your exact requirements. I use an Ergodox EZ, though, but may experiment more in the future.

selftest 6y ago

If you’re already typing correctly, you’re relying on muscle memory. Adding some layers into the mix isn’t too much of a leap. I would argue that a good split keyboard is much more useful than a standard keyboard; better positioning for ergonomics or desk space, easily stowed when not in use, truly programmable (firmware not software) that works between systems with little or no setup and a keymap that works for the user instead of against. I like having all my often used keys in the home row. I don’t have to move my hands to use arrow keys because I use vim bindings on a layer. Hyphen,underscore, grave and tilde are on the home row, too. I can program a key to be a combination of key presses, too. My workflow is much improved using my own custom keymap and keyboard.

badlucklottery 6y ago

>It's like their designers want the device to be less useful, not more! The main focus of most of these keyboards is ergonomics. Even if it comes at the cost of learnability. This is also why there's a lot of variation. People are dropping and moving keys to deal with things like hand size and existing RSI. >I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. You can probably get someone to 3d print and solder you a one-off keyboard that fits the bill. It's doubtful anyone other than MS will mass produce such a thing though.

animex 6y ago

I've never used a better keyboard other than durability issues. I usually burn through one every couple years. (I game alot)

jwalton 6y ago

> I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. I replaced my MS keyboard with a Kinesis Gaming Edge - it's a pretty good replacement, and I've found being able to separate the two halves of the keyboard and put them about shoulder width apart makes for a very nice typing experience. No numpad, and I'm not a huge fan of the home/end/pgup/pgdown placement, but you can add a numpad in a second later if you want to.

Symbiote 6y ago

> most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons, and so on This is why I made the gallery -- it's an easy way to compare a lot of options, even if not all options have filters. I have just added the C989 Ergo, which was mentioned elsewhere in the discussion. That seems to be the closest mass-produced, mechanical keyboard to the MS Natural: https://c9ergo.com/ https://c9ergo.com/