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Complete user freedom includes the freedom to activate the orbital footgun array (e.g. kernel level debuggers), it is inherently unsafe. So we can't have both

Complete user freedom includes the freedom to activate the orbital footgun array (e.g. kernel level debuggers), it is inherently unsafe. So we can't have both at the same time. But what we can have is more stops along the safe-powerful gradient and provide safe APIs/wrappers for the most popular use-cases that are developed through unsafe means.

saagarjha 6y ago
macOS lets you install a kernel level debugger, though.
zepto 6y ago
All security relies on on trust. Right now, iOS security relies on trusting Apple to evaluate the trustworthyness of third parties. Fully open systems rely on trusting yourself to evaluate the trustworthiness of third parties. I believe it’s possible to engineer a framework where there are more options for delegating trust than just these two. We don’t currently have such an infrastructure, but we need one.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  I mean, doesn't Android already have that middle ground? If I install F-Droid, I have to asses that I trust it, but thereafter I delegate trust to them and can install from their repos without having to re-decide every time.
  - zepto 6y ago
    To a certain extent yes, but delegation at the store level is extremely coarse grained. Also, no automatic updates.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
      > To a certain extent yes, but delegation at the store level is extremely coarse grained. I suppose that's true. I'm curious what level of precision you would prefer to see? Accepting a developer's key? > Also, no automatic updates. Only because Google decided to be uncooperative in their builds. If you control your own system partition, I believe you can still inject the privileged extension and have this. Google has also implied that this might change with Android 12 (https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2020/09/listening-to-developer-feedback-to.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2020/09/listening-...).

saagarjha 6y ago

macOS lets you install a kernel level debugger, though.

zepto 6y ago

All security relies on on trust. Right now, iOS security relies on trusting Apple to evaluate the trustworthyness of third parties. Fully open systems rely on trusting yourself to evaluate the trustworthiness of third parties. I believe it’s possible to engineer a framework where there are more options for delegating trust than just these two. We don’t currently have such an infrastructure, but we need one.

yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
I mean, doesn't Android already have that middle ground? If I install F-Droid, I have to asses that I trust it, but thereafter I delegate trust to them and can install from their repos without having to re-decide every time.
- zepto 6y ago
  To a certain extent yes, but delegation at the store level is extremely coarse grained. Also, no automatic updates.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    > To a certain extent yes, but delegation at the store level is extremely coarse grained. I suppose that's true. I'm curious what level of precision you would prefer to see? Accepting a developer's key? > Also, no automatic updates. Only because Google decided to be uncooperative in their builds. If you control your own system partition, I believe you can still inject the privileged extension and have this. Google has also implied that this might change with Android 12 (https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2020/09/listening-to-developer-feedback-to.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2020/09/listening-...).