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> At least on paper it's optimized for all good things.... Tell that to Liu Hu. Liu Hu is a journalist in China, writing about censorship and government corru

> At least on paper it's optimized for all good things.... Tell that to Liu Hu. Liu Hu is a journalist in China, writing about censorship and government corruption. Because of his work, Liu has been arrested and fined — and blacklisted. Liu found he was named on a List of Dishonest Persons Subject to Enforcement by the Supreme People's Court as "not qualified" to buy a plane ticket, and banned from travelling some train lines, buying property, or taking out a loan. "There was no file, no police warrant, no official advance notification. They just cut me off from the things I was once entitled to," he told The Globe and Mail. "What's really scary is there's nothing you can do about it. You can report to no one. You are stuck in the middle of nowhere."

2a0c40 6y ago
https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-security/grounded-life-no-fly-list https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-security/grounded-life-...
- HashingtheCode 6y ago
  Not the same thing as it applies to suspected terrorist only. In contrast anyone can be blacklisted by the SCS for numerous reasons unrelated to terrorism and banned from using ALL forms of public transport.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    Given the opaque nature of the US no-fly list, in practice you can be blacklisted from flying for any -- or no -- reason, and no one is accountable for that choice. If -- and that's a big "if" -- you have the connections required to appeal that decision, the end result is just "oops, sorry, it was an accident", with no consequences to the government for their "error".
  - nl 6y ago
    The key question is "is this subject to judicial oversight such that an ordinary citizen can challenge it" The US is better in that id can be challenged. However, there are significant difficulties with this in practice[1]. This is still better than the situation in China where there is no legal means to challenge it. [1] eg, https://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2019/01/02/no-fly-list-terrorists-government-1078246 https://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2019/01/02/no...
    - HashingtheCode 6y ago
      Apparently with the SCS, if you were to be blacklisted there is possibility to challenge the decision. Liu Hu appealed his decision but is still on the blacklist and has problems due to his low SCS. Another case is listed below: In Xie’s case, he didn’t have time. “No one notified me that I was on the blacklist. Then court officials detained me, so I had to pay the fine,” he said. Xie is now off the blacklist. Lawyer Li Xiaolin was also not given advanced notice that he was blacklisted. In 2014, Li was sued for defamation and lost. A judge ordered Li to make an apology, which he submitted in writing in April 2015. Ten months later, when he was away on a work trip, he was blocked from buying a return flight home to Beijing. That’s when he found out he was blacklisted. It took him another three weeks before an official told him why. “The court said my apology was not sincere. I asked officials how they determined what is sincere.” Li said. Eventually Li wrote a second apology and the court removed him from the blacklist in 2016. Then last year, he tried to get a credit card. “The bank denied my application. I figured out that the bank might still have my name blacklisted and I was right,” Li said. The bank updated its records the next day, but by that point, he had spent almost a year to fully clear his name. “The social credit system gives a very powerful weapon to officials, in a country with very unbalanced relations between citizens and the government,” she said. For now, Liu is still on the blacklist, which the Chinese state media refers to as the list of “laolai” or deadbeats. He is still trying to get off it. https://www.marketplace.org/2018/02/13/social-credit-score-china-blacklisted/ https://www.marketplace.org/2018/02/13/social-credit-score-c...
      - nl 6y ago
        Interesting. For all the valid criticism of the Chinese court system, that is still faster than the case I linked in the US. Not sure what that shows...
        HashingtheCode 6y ago
        It should hopefully show, that once you get blacklisted on the SCS system, getting off it and living a normal life is extraordinarily difficult.

2a0c40 6y ago

https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-security/grounded-life-no-fly-list https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-security/grounded-life-...

HashingtheCode 6y ago
Not the same thing as it applies to suspected terrorist only. In contrast anyone can be blacklisted by the SCS for numerous reasons unrelated to terrorism and banned from using ALL forms of public transport.
- kelnos 6y ago
  Given the opaque nature of the US no-fly list, in practice you can be blacklisted from flying for any -- or no -- reason, and no one is accountable for that choice. If -- and that's a big "if" -- you have the connections required to appeal that decision, the end result is just "oops, sorry, it was an accident", with no consequences to the government for their "error".
- nl 6y ago
  The key question is "is this subject to judicial oversight such that an ordinary citizen can challenge it" The US is better in that id can be challenged. However, there are significant difficulties with this in practice[1]. This is still better than the situation in China where there is no legal means to challenge it. [1] eg, https://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2019/01/02/no-fly-list-terrorists-government-1078246 https://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2019/01/02/no...
  - HashingtheCode 6y ago
    Apparently with the SCS, if you were to be blacklisted there is possibility to challenge the decision. Liu Hu appealed his decision but is still on the blacklist and has problems due to his low SCS. Another case is listed below: In Xie’s case, he didn’t have time. “No one notified me that I was on the blacklist. Then court officials detained me, so I had to pay the fine,” he said. Xie is now off the blacklist. Lawyer Li Xiaolin was also not given advanced notice that he was blacklisted. In 2014, Li was sued for defamation and lost. A judge ordered Li to make an apology, which he submitted in writing in April 2015. Ten months later, when he was away on a work trip, he was blocked from buying a return flight home to Beijing. That’s when he found out he was blacklisted. It took him another three weeks before an official told him why. “The court said my apology was not sincere. I asked officials how they determined what is sincere.” Li said. Eventually Li wrote a second apology and the court removed him from the blacklist in 2016. Then last year, he tried to get a credit card. “The bank denied my application. I figured out that the bank might still have my name blacklisted and I was right,” Li said. The bank updated its records the next day, but by that point, he had spent almost a year to fully clear his name. “The social credit system gives a very powerful weapon to officials, in a country with very unbalanced relations between citizens and the government,” she said. For now, Liu is still on the blacklist, which the Chinese state media refers to as the list of “laolai” or deadbeats. He is still trying to get off it. https://www.marketplace.org/2018/02/13/social-credit-score-china-blacklisted/ https://www.marketplace.org/2018/02/13/social-credit-score-c...
    - nl 6y ago
      Interesting. For all the valid criticism of the Chinese court system, that is still faster than the case I linked in the US. Not sure what that shows...
      - HashingtheCode 6y ago
        It should hopefully show, that once you get blacklisted on the SCS system, getting off it and living a normal life is extraordinarily difficult.