4 ms·

Like the article mentions, private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes, but as long as its not from the state, nobody in

Like the article mentions, private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes, but as long as its not from the state, nobody in the west will care about it. Which is very weird because it is exactly how people end up living in worse neighborhoods even if they have enough money to pay rent elsewhere, leading to worse and worse outcomes and no way to change that. A state sanctioned one having more immediate effects and denial of service just is too convenient for us to express our opinion about. But as the article itself and commenters mention, credit bureaus in a variety of countries have the same effect. We should use China's system to galvanize support in addressing our own private sector systems at home.

AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
A standard US credit score system may seem to be similar, but there are some important differences: - a person has access to their file - there are ways to correct mistakes on file, should any be found - scoring algorithm is more or less known
- ardy42 6y ago
  > A standard US credit score system may seem to be similar, but there are some important differences: Also: - it's limited in scope to financial accounts. The end goal of the Chinese system appears to be to rate you on nearly every aspect of your life, which is quite different.
  - chillacy 6y ago
    If you look at the history of the US credit system, it used to be about other aspects of like (a bank employee factored in if you went to church, were an alcoholic, etc) and it resulted in low access to credit, especially to minorities. That it eventually became regulated and limited to the financial domain was actually a huge feature of the credit system in America that unlocked a lot of good things. So from the US point of view, a "social credit system" seems backwards in a "been there, tried that" kind of thing.
- HashingtheCode 6y ago
  Similar as in tomatoes are to potatoes. As far as i know, even if you have a terrible US credit score, you can still buy a train/plane/bus ticket to travel outside of your city, you can still buy mobile phone contracts, start a business, buy property, send your children to a private school etc etc. The SCS in China will punish the individual by restricting these things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXyzpMDtpSE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXyzpMDtpSE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evBzPwCdeHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evBzPwCdeHI
raincom 6y ago
Private sector credit systems provide layers of indirection in the Western democracies. Add to that mix: surveillance capitalism and third-party doctrine. Result: the same deadly cocktail that people living in authoritarian regimes experience!
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
>private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes I don't know how anyone can say this with a straight face. In the west you can be bankrupt and still buy a first class airline ticket or go to a concert or do damn near anything else so long as you aren't using credit to do it.
- vmception 6y ago
  > says same or similar result > rebuts with a different result I elaborated enough on what circumstances dictate outcomes. You might have missed the point, which was that we can do things differently and can use this as an opportunity for introspection to make it happen differently. And again, I am echoing sentiments from the article, so if you think I'm way off base then the whole article is invalid too and you should comment at the top level instead of whatever hairs you want to split with me.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  you meet many bankrupt people on luxury cruises and first class airline tickets? What's astonishing to me is how we in the West have created this metaphysical alternative reality where poor people are taught to think they have the chance to live in mansions or fly on luxury airlines, if it weren't for the fact that they're poor, of course. In contrast to the cruel Chinese, we also have majestic legal equality, where the millionaires and the poor are equally punished for sleeping on park benches
  - dangus 6y ago
    Oooh because of recent news, I have to take this bait! > you meet many bankrupt people on luxury cruises and first class airline tickets? Donald J. Trump
  - TallGuyShort 6y ago
    Bankrupt people? No. People who have declared bankruptcy multiple times? Absolutely.
  - AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
reaperducer 6y ago
private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes, but as long as its not from the state, nobody in the west will care about it If I do something bad, like file for bankruptcy, it is wiped off of the "private sector credit systems" after seven years. China's scorekeeping is perpetual. There is no forgiveness. No second chances. Another important difference is that in the West, being penalized for things like now showing up for a dinner reservation are opt-in. You choose to make a reservation through Open Table in order to get points. Part of that contract is that you will honor your reservations. Nobody forces you to use Open Table. credit bureaus in a variety of countries have the same effect Which Western credit bureaus are tracking charitable donations? Blood donations? The times someone plays music too loudly? The times someone throws a banana peel into the recycling bin?
- free_rms 6y ago
  > China's scorekeeping is perpetual. There is no forgiveness. No second chances. This is in a special category of "not even wrong". 1) There's no singular Social Credit System at the moment, there are a dozen trials of different systems in different cities and by different corporations. As such, there's no singular scorekeeping, perpetual or otherwise. 2) In most of the experiments, not only can people get out from under with time, they can accelerate it by doing things that are deemed 'socially positive'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System
  - lolbrels 6y ago
    "Deemed socially positive"? Is that because they have no intrinsic understanding of right and wrong? I prefer free citizens that choose to do the right thing on their own, not because it gets them 5 slave points. :) Are you the CPP rep on shift today?
- chillacy 6y ago
  I saw a documentary a year ago and it looked like in one of the credit schemes people literally just "donated money" to increase their scores, so you can improve your score... but it also looked kind of like bribery with more steps (esp if there's charity vetting).
wmeredith 6y ago
I may not care for Experian et al., but I do like that they can't send me and my family to a concentration camp to be re-educated. The difference between the government and the private sector, is the government has a monopoly on violence.
- chrischen 6y ago
  They won't need to do that. They can just ruin your credit because of your skin color (based on models influenced by systematic racism). That's if you haven't been shot or harassed by cops trained to bias against people like you. We've got our own problems that need to be fixed before we start governing the Chinese people without representation. They certainly have a lot of tea in China to dump into the waters.
kelnos 6y ago
Private sector credit systems allow you to examine your record and appeal to get incorrect information corrected, with a legal framework in place that ensures the credit bureau actually acts on your complaints. Also their scope is limited: if I show that I can't be trusted with credit, the result of my low credit score is that it becomes harder for me to get more credit. With China's social credit system, me habitually making restaurant reservations and then bailing on them, or defaulting on loans, can result in my being denied the ability to fly on a plane. These things have nothing to do with each other, and the punishment does not fit the "crime". If I bail on restaurant reservations all the time, I should just not be allowed to make restaurant reservations. If I default on loans, I shouldn't be able to get more loans. I agree that the private sector credit systems could stand to be improved a lot, and there are a lot of side consequences for being unable to obtain credit (that tend to disproportionately affect certain types of people), but that is nowhere near the same thing.
- aeternum 6y ago
  > Also their scope is limited Is this really true in the US? Increasingly I've been surprised at all the places that want to pull credit. Cellphone companies, electric company, applying to rent an apt, even HR departments.
  - stickfigure 6y ago
    These are examples of things that involve a creditor relationship. You usually postpay your phone and electric bills; even though you prepay your rent, in practice the eviction process is so slow that landlords are effectively on the hook for several months' rent. Most of these have workarounds. You can buy prepaid cell phone plans (usually cheaper and easier than postpaid!). Electric companies will let anyone open up an account with a deposit.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    With the exception of the HR department, those other people/groups do have an interest in ensuring that you'll pay your bills on time. If you're on a cellular plan where you get the phone free/cheap and then pay it off over the next year or two, that's a creditor relationship. Postpaid plans mean that you pay your bill at the end of the month, so if you fail to pay, the phone company has lost money on you. Prepaid plans, IIRC, usually don't require a credit check because you pay up-front. Even for the electric company, there are often laws against shutting off your service because of non-payment, since electricity is considered so fundamental to our lives. And again, like cellular can be, it's a post-paid service. Renting an apartment isn't quite so obviously a credit thing, but in many jurisdictions it's difficult and expensive to evict a tenant, even for non-payment.

AlexTWithBeard 6y ago

A standard US credit score system may seem to be similar, but there are some important differences: - a person has access to their file - there are ways to correct mistakes on file, should any be found - scoring algorithm is more or less known

ardy42 6y ago
> A standard US credit score system may seem to be similar, but there are some important differences: Also: - it's limited in scope to financial accounts. The end goal of the Chinese system appears to be to rate you on nearly every aspect of your life, which is quite different.
- chillacy 6y ago
  If you look at the history of the US credit system, it used to be about other aspects of like (a bank employee factored in if you went to church, were an alcoholic, etc) and it resulted in low access to credit, especially to minorities. That it eventually became regulated and limited to the financial domain was actually a huge feature of the credit system in America that unlocked a lot of good things. So from the US point of view, a "social credit system" seems backwards in a "been there, tried that" kind of thing.
HashingtheCode 6y ago
Similar as in tomatoes are to potatoes. As far as i know, even if you have a terrible US credit score, you can still buy a train/plane/bus ticket to travel outside of your city, you can still buy mobile phone contracts, start a business, buy property, send your children to a private school etc etc. The SCS in China will punish the individual by restricting these things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXyzpMDtpSE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXyzpMDtpSE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evBzPwCdeHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evBzPwCdeHI

raincom 6y ago

Private sector credit systems provide layers of indirection in the Western democracies. Add to that mix: surveillance capitalism and third-party doctrine. Result: the same deadly cocktail that people living in authoritarian regimes experience!

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

>private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes I don't know how anyone can say this with a straight face. In the west you can be bankrupt and still buy a first class airline ticket or go to a concert or do damn near anything else so long as you aren't using credit to do it.

vmception 6y ago
> says same or similar result > rebuts with a different result I elaborated enough on what circumstances dictate outcomes. You might have missed the point, which was that we can do things differently and can use this as an opportunity for introspection to make it happen differently. And again, I am echoing sentiments from the article, so if you think I'm way off base then the whole article is invalid too and you should comment at the top level instead of whatever hairs you want to split with me.
Barrin92 6y ago
you meet many bankrupt people on luxury cruises and first class airline tickets? What's astonishing to me is how we in the West have created this metaphysical alternative reality where poor people are taught to think they have the chance to live in mansions or fly on luxury airlines, if it weren't for the fact that they're poor, of course. In contrast to the cruel Chinese, we also have majestic legal equality, where the millionaires and the poor are equally punished for sleeping on park benches
- dangus 6y ago
  Oooh because of recent news, I have to take this bait! > you meet many bankrupt people on luxury cruises and first class airline tickets? Donald J. Trump
- TallGuyShort 6y ago
  Bankrupt people? No. People who have declared bankruptcy multiple times? Absolutely.
- AlexTWithBeard 6y ago

reaperducer 6y ago

private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes, but as long as its not from the state, nobody in the west will care about it If I do something bad, like file for bankruptcy, it is wiped off of the "private sector credit systems" after seven years. China's scorekeeping is perpetual. There is no forgiveness. No second chances. Another important difference is that in the West, being penalized for things like now showing up for a dinner reservation are opt-in. You choose to make a reservation through Open Table in order to get points. Part of that contract is that you will honor your reservations. Nobody forces you to use Open Table. credit bureaus in a variety of countries have the same effect Which Western credit bureaus are tracking charitable donations? Blood donations? The times someone plays music too loudly? The times someone throws a banana peel into the recycling bin?

free_rms 6y ago
> China's scorekeeping is perpetual. There is no forgiveness. No second chances. This is in a special category of "not even wrong". 1) There's no singular Social Credit System at the moment, there are a dozen trials of different systems in different cities and by different corporations. As such, there's no singular scorekeeping, perpetual or otherwise. 2) In most of the experiments, not only can people get out from under with time, they can accelerate it by doing things that are deemed 'socially positive'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System
- lolbrels 6y ago
  "Deemed socially positive"? Is that because they have no intrinsic understanding of right and wrong? I prefer free citizens that choose to do the right thing on their own, not because it gets them 5 slave points. :) Are you the CPP rep on shift today?
chillacy 6y ago
I saw a documentary a year ago and it looked like in one of the credit schemes people literally just "donated money" to increase their scores, so you can improve your score... but it also looked kind of like bribery with more steps (esp if there's charity vetting).

wmeredith 6y ago

I may not care for Experian et al., but I do like that they can't send me and my family to a concentration camp to be re-educated. The difference between the government and the private sector, is the government has a monopoly on violence.

chrischen 6y ago
They won't need to do that. They can just ruin your credit because of your skin color (based on models influenced by systematic racism). That's if you haven't been shot or harassed by cops trained to bias against people like you. We've got our own problems that need to be fixed before we start governing the Chinese people without representation. They certainly have a lot of tea in China to dump into the waters.

kelnos 6y ago

Private sector credit systems allow you to examine your record and appeal to get incorrect information corrected, with a legal framework in place that ensures the credit bureau actually acts on your complaints. Also their scope is limited: if I show that I can't be trusted with credit, the result of my low credit score is that it becomes harder for me to get more credit. With China's social credit system, me habitually making restaurant reservations and then bailing on them, or defaulting on loans, can result in my being denied the ability to fly on a plane. These things have nothing to do with each other, and the punishment does not fit the "crime". If I bail on restaurant reservations all the time, I should just not be allowed to make restaurant reservations. If I default on loans, I shouldn't be able to get more loans. I agree that the private sector credit systems could stand to be improved a lot, and there are a lot of side consequences for being unable to obtain credit (that tend to disproportionately affect certain types of people), but that is nowhere near the same thing.

aeternum 6y ago
> Also their scope is limited Is this really true in the US? Increasingly I've been surprised at all the places that want to pull credit. Cellphone companies, electric company, applying to rent an apt, even HR departments.
- stickfigure 6y ago
  These are examples of things that involve a creditor relationship. You usually postpay your phone and electric bills; even though you prepay your rent, in practice the eviction process is so slow that landlords are effectively on the hook for several months' rent. Most of these have workarounds. You can buy prepaid cell phone plans (usually cheaper and easier than postpaid!). Electric companies will let anyone open up an account with a deposit.
- kelnos 6y ago
  With the exception of the HR department, those other people/groups do have an interest in ensuring that you'll pay your bills on time. If you're on a cellular plan where you get the phone free/cheap and then pay it off over the next year or two, that's a creditor relationship. Postpaid plans mean that you pay your bill at the end of the month, so if you fail to pay, the phone company has lost money on you. Prepaid plans, IIRC, usually don't require a credit check because you pay up-front. Even for the electric company, there are often laws against shutting off your service because of non-payment, since electricity is considered so fundamental to our lives. And again, like cellular can be, it's a post-paid service. Renting an apartment isn't quite so obviously a credit thing, but in many jurisdictions it's difficult and expensive to evict a tenant, even for non-payment.