4 ms·

But also the biggest party membership in a long time, the Tories quietly ‘adopting’ some of their policies post-election, the derided free internet idea seeming

But also the biggest party membership in a long time, the Tories quietly ‘adopting’ some of their policies post-election, the derided free internet idea seeming weirdly prescient when Covid hit, the number of people who voted Tory to ‘get Brexit done’... it’s more complicated than “they lost because people hate socialism”. e: according to the downvotes, no, it is because people hate socialism. It must be nice to live in a world with such simple answers eh :)

dkdbejwi383 6y ago
> e: according to the downvotes, no, it is because people hate socialism. It must be nice to live in a world with such simple answers eh :) It's probably because a lot of users on here are American (and thus pre-disposed to hate "socialism") and also a large number of users on here are wanna ultra-paneer libertarian bozos who think they want a minimalist, economically liberal government so that their startup can _finally_ make the millions it would be making if it wasn't held back by the red menace
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- aries1980 6y ago
  Some of us grew up in a mild socialist/communist regime, in where leaders thought they can more wisely spend the fruit of your labour than yourself. So we emigrated to a country that supposed to be free. In the UK, a middle class earner already pays 40% income tax + 20% VAT + 13.8% NI, that's a neat 73.8% to the community already (not to mention the extra taxes, like the Council Tax or extra duties when you pour a gin). The labour wanted to increase this by 5-25 percentage point. What is communism, if not the political ruling that strips the common people to build up wealth?
  - dkdbejwi383 6y ago
    > What is communism, if not the political ruling that strips the common people to build up wealth? That sounds like capitalism to me. > In the UK, a middle class earner already pays 40% income tax + 20% VAT + 13.8% NI, that's a neat 73.8% to the community already (not to mention the extra taxes, like the Council Tax or extra duties when you pour a gin). The labour wanted to increase this by 5-25 percentage point. I am a very middle-class earner and I'd very happily pay more tax if it went to funding the NHS, metal health programs, real addition treatment (not criminalisation of addicts), house building, arts programs. In fact I have consistently voted for this. Your post insinuates that these taxes are just taken with nothing gained. I am happy to pay council tax because I know that pays for services I benefit from, like rubbish collection, parks and landscape maintenance, street cleaning, etc. I am happy to pay duty on alcohol because I know it is an addictive substance, and although I don't suffer from addiction, others do, and in order for me to freely consume alcohol I have to accept that as a society we have to pay for those to do suffer because of it. I am happy to pay income tax and NI because I use NHS services, I went to a state funded school, I use the railways, etc.
    - aries1980 6y ago
      > That sounds like capitalism to me. Capitalism encourages private ownership and keeping the means of your labour. High taxation is the opposite of this, because it doesn't leave enough profit at the individual, which prevents private ownership. > Your post insinuates that these taxes are just taken with nothing gained. That's not true. Just because to me the current and Labour-proposed level of taxation is not motivating to do more doesn't mean some level of taxation is not necessary. It is not all or nothing. > I have to accept that as a society we have to pay for those to do suffer because of it. This is the fundamental difference from our point-of-view. I look at free and adult individuals as who are responsible for their actions and can be held accountable.
  - silveroriole 6y ago
    Your figures are obviously wrong... tax is not 40% over your entire earnings and VAT is not taken from your salary. So this “omg, government take 75% of my earnings!” thing is alarmist. e: in fact if you earn 80k and spend ALL your takehome on 20% VAT goods, you still end up with the majority share.
    - aries1980 6y ago
      > in fact if you earn 80k and spend ALL your takehome on 20% VAT goods, you still end up with the majority share. Employment salary cost: 91.04K (gross salary + employer's national insurance) Gross income: 80K Take home pay: 55.04K VAT: 11K The value you can get if you buy everyday items after your 91K salary cost is 44K or 48%, the rest, 47K goes to the treasury. My figures were wrong indeed.
iso1631 6y ago
"Free internet" idea seemed silly - why not free electricity to power the internet? How would such a system cope with alternate technologies in rural areas where WISPs or Satelite are better provisions. How would alternate providers who provide their own fibre rather than using openreach compete? I went door to door in December, spoke personally to hundreds of people from all backgrounds. A significant number were switching Labour to Tory because they did not like Corbyn. More voted Tory rather than Lib Dem because they were worried about Corbyn. Should they have been worried? Probably not. Were they influenced by unfair media coverage? Probably. Would Corbyn have been better than Johnson? Certainly. That doesn't matter, what matters is what people believe, and Corbyn was a massive millstone around Labour's neck in 2019, which (when combined with a non-democratic voting system) led to a Conservative landslide. Had they dumped Corbyn in November and replaced him with Keir Starmer, we'd likely have had a government of national unity instead of an election, a referendum which would have swung to remain just like the Swiss referendum did, and competence rather than corruption throughout this pandemic.

dkdbejwi383 6y ago

> e: according to the downvotes, no, it is because people hate socialism. It must be nice to live in a world with such simple answers eh :) It's probably because a lot of users on here are American (and thus pre-disposed to hate "socialism") and also a large number of users on here are wanna ultra-paneer libertarian bozos who think they want a minimalist, economically liberal government so that their startup can _finally_ make the millions it would be making if it wasn't held back by the red menace

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
aries1980 6y ago
Some of us grew up in a mild socialist/communist regime, in where leaders thought they can more wisely spend the fruit of your labour than yourself. So we emigrated to a country that supposed to be free. In the UK, a middle class earner already pays 40% income tax + 20% VAT + 13.8% NI, that's a neat 73.8% to the community already (not to mention the extra taxes, like the Council Tax or extra duties when you pour a gin). The labour wanted to increase this by 5-25 percentage point. What is communism, if not the political ruling that strips the common people to build up wealth?
- dkdbejwi383 6y ago
  > What is communism, if not the political ruling that strips the common people to build up wealth? That sounds like capitalism to me. > In the UK, a middle class earner already pays 40% income tax + 20% VAT + 13.8% NI, that's a neat 73.8% to the community already (not to mention the extra taxes, like the Council Tax or extra duties when you pour a gin). The labour wanted to increase this by 5-25 percentage point. I am a very middle-class earner and I'd very happily pay more tax if it went to funding the NHS, metal health programs, real addition treatment (not criminalisation of addicts), house building, arts programs. In fact I have consistently voted for this. Your post insinuates that these taxes are just taken with nothing gained. I am happy to pay council tax because I know that pays for services I benefit from, like rubbish collection, parks and landscape maintenance, street cleaning, etc. I am happy to pay duty on alcohol because I know it is an addictive substance, and although I don't suffer from addiction, others do, and in order for me to freely consume alcohol I have to accept that as a society we have to pay for those to do suffer because of it. I am happy to pay income tax and NI because I use NHS services, I went to a state funded school, I use the railways, etc.
  - aries1980 6y ago
    > That sounds like capitalism to me. Capitalism encourages private ownership and keeping the means of your labour. High taxation is the opposite of this, because it doesn't leave enough profit at the individual, which prevents private ownership. > Your post insinuates that these taxes are just taken with nothing gained. That's not true. Just because to me the current and Labour-proposed level of taxation is not motivating to do more doesn't mean some level of taxation is not necessary. It is not all or nothing. > I have to accept that as a society we have to pay for those to do suffer because of it. This is the fundamental difference from our point-of-view. I look at free and adult individuals as who are responsible for their actions and can be held accountable.
- silveroriole 6y ago
  Your figures are obviously wrong... tax is not 40% over your entire earnings and VAT is not taken from your salary. So this “omg, government take 75% of my earnings!” thing is alarmist. e: in fact if you earn 80k and spend ALL your takehome on 20% VAT goods, you still end up with the majority share.
  - aries1980 6y ago
    > in fact if you earn 80k and spend ALL your takehome on 20% VAT goods, you still end up with the majority share. Employment salary cost: 91.04K (gross salary + employer's national insurance) Gross income: 80K Take home pay: 55.04K VAT: 11K The value you can get if you buy everyday items after your 91K salary cost is 44K or 48%, the rest, 47K goes to the treasury. My figures were wrong indeed.

iso1631 6y ago

"Free internet" idea seemed silly - why not free electricity to power the internet? How would such a system cope with alternate technologies in rural areas where WISPs or Satelite are better provisions. How would alternate providers who provide their own fibre rather than using openreach compete? I went door to door in December, spoke personally to hundreds of people from all backgrounds. A significant number were switching Labour to Tory because they did not like Corbyn. More voted Tory rather than Lib Dem because they were worried about Corbyn. Should they have been worried? Probably not. Were they influenced by unfair media coverage? Probably. Would Corbyn have been better than Johnson? Certainly. That doesn't matter, what matters is what people believe, and Corbyn was a massive millstone around Labour's neck in 2019, which (when combined with a non-democratic voting system) led to a Conservative landslide. Had they dumped Corbyn in November and replaced him with Keir Starmer, we'd likely have had a government of national unity instead of an election, a referendum which would have swung to remain just like the Swiss referendum did, and competence rather than corruption throughout this pandemic.