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It's not "structurally sexism", it's biology. Practically no women ever will make it through the entirety of a pregnancy without needing (not choosing) to take

It's not "structurally sexism", it's biology. Practically no women ever will make it through the entirety of a pregnancy without needing (not choosing) to take some time off work if she works a full-time job. Even if this is just a single day of delivery. Generally though, it's much more than a single day that needs to be taken off. In contrast, at no point in a woman's pregnancy does the father need to take time off. There is nothing sexist about this. It is more efficient to extend one person's required time off than it is to give two separate people time off. An extended maternity leave generally means that one company needs to find one replacement or otherwise shuffle work. Maternity + paternity leave means you need to do that, 2x. I fully support longer paternity leaves because I do think it is important for having equality in the workplace. But the idea that it's society that is sexist in this regard is ridiculous. Honestly I don't think we will really have equality until babies are grown in test tubes, and that's not society's fault.

SiempreViernes 6y ago
Employer payment structure is biology?
- fastball 6y ago
  This has nothing to do with payment. People work jobs in society. Even if you don't live in a society where you get paid a wage for working that job, time still needs to be taken off work to have a baby. It's more economically efficient (it takes time and effort to replace the work that was being done by someone, regardless of how employers are remunerating employees) to extend that person's leave than to arrange for two separate leaves for two separate jobs when there was no necessity for the second person to take time off in the first place.
  - jahaja 6y ago
    Why do you think this is about economical efficiency?
    - fastball 6y ago
      Because that's reality? It's emergent behavior based off efficiency and the harsh realities of childbirth (i.e. men and women have very different parts to play in childbirth). It's not sexism.
      - jahaja 6y ago
        What's your point? You said: > It's more economically efficient [..] to extend that person's leave than to arrange for two separate leaves This isn't about what's economically efficient, it's about what certain societies think is well spent money.
        fastball 6y ago
        My point is literally the first sentence of my comment. > It's not "structurally sexism", it's biology.
        jahaja 6y ago
        There's nothing biological in denying fathers parental leave even if the mother takes the first months of it. And it is sexism to ignore the effects to womens careers if this is not shared.
        fastball 6y ago
        Nobody is denying anything. Paternal leave is a privilege, not a right. Not doing everything you possibly can to make everyone equal when it comes to sex is not sexism.
        jahaja 6y ago
        > Paternal leave is a privilege, not a right. So what? > Not doing everything you possibly can to make everyone equal when it comes to sex is not sexism. If something inherent in our society - having children - causes one gender to have unequal opportunity it's sexist to be against counter-measures due to some sort of bullshit "biology" argument.
madarcho 6y ago
Do you think the work stops once the baby is born? This is exactly the effort that these parental leave laws tries to cover.
- fastball 6y ago
  Did you read my comment at all?
alex_duf 6y ago
But you can't close the salary gap between men and women by only mostly having women taking childcare responsibilities. So if you introduce mandatory and equal leave for both parents, not only do you get happier parents, but you also don't advantage men over women for their biology. That's all there is to it really, pretty simple and already implemented in plenty of countries.
- fastball 6y ago
  Yes, that's why I literally said I support longer paternity leave in the end of my comment. Paternity leave is an example of society taking biological differences and the reality of bringing a child into the world (that it asks a helluva lot more of the mother than the father) and making everything more equitable. The purpose of my comment was not to say paternity leave doesn't make any sense. It was to say that the lack of it is not an example of sexism. It's an example of men and women being different and therefore the non-egalitarian default being different for men and women. That's not sexism.
bluedino 6y ago
I didn't think I would need more than 1 week off, but my wife needs a break from watching a newborn all day (and all night). I'm glad in a way that with COVID, I can stay home a day or two a week and it's not a big deal, and I'm also forced to take off 1 day per pay period.

SiempreViernes 6y ago

Employer payment structure is biology?

fastball 6y ago
This has nothing to do with payment. People work jobs in society. Even if you don't live in a society where you get paid a wage for working that job, time still needs to be taken off work to have a baby. It's more economically efficient (it takes time and effort to replace the work that was being done by someone, regardless of how employers are remunerating employees) to extend that person's leave than to arrange for two separate leaves for two separate jobs when there was no necessity for the second person to take time off in the first place.
- jahaja 6y ago
  Why do you think this is about economical efficiency?
  - fastball 6y ago
    Because that's reality? It's emergent behavior based off efficiency and the harsh realities of childbirth (i.e. men and women have very different parts to play in childbirth). It's not sexism.
    - jahaja 6y ago
      What's your point? You said: > It's more economically efficient [..] to extend that person's leave than to arrange for two separate leaves This isn't about what's economically efficient, it's about what certain societies think is well spent money.
      - fastball 6y ago
        My point is literally the first sentence of my comment. > It's not "structurally sexism", it's biology.
        jahaja 6y ago
        There's nothing biological in denying fathers parental leave even if the mother takes the first months of it. And it is sexism to ignore the effects to womens careers if this is not shared.
        fastball 6y ago
        Nobody is denying anything. Paternal leave is a privilege, not a right. Not doing everything you possibly can to make everyone equal when it comes to sex is not sexism.
        jahaja 6y ago
        > Paternal leave is a privilege, not a right. So what? > Not doing everything you possibly can to make everyone equal when it comes to sex is not sexism. If something inherent in our society - having children - causes one gender to have unequal opportunity it's sexist to be against counter-measures due to some sort of bullshit "biology" argument.

madarcho 6y ago

Do you think the work stops once the baby is born? This is exactly the effort that these parental leave laws tries to cover.

fastball 6y ago
Did you read my comment at all?

alex_duf 6y ago

But you can't close the salary gap between men and women by only mostly having women taking childcare responsibilities. So if you introduce mandatory and equal leave for both parents, not only do you get happier parents, but you also don't advantage men over women for their biology. That's all there is to it really, pretty simple and already implemented in plenty of countries.

fastball 6y ago
Yes, that's why I literally said I support longer paternity leave in the end of my comment. Paternity leave is an example of society taking biological differences and the reality of bringing a child into the world (that it asks a helluva lot more of the mother than the father) and making everything more equitable. The purpose of my comment was not to say paternity leave doesn't make any sense. It was to say that the lack of it is not an example of sexism. It's an example of men and women being different and therefore the non-egalitarian default being different for men and women. That's not sexism.

bluedino 6y ago

I didn't think I would need more than 1 week off, but my wife needs a break from watching a newborn all day (and all night). I'm glad in a way that with COVID, I can stay home a day or two a week and it's not a big deal, and I'm also forced to take off 1 day per pay period.