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TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation. TikTok also has history of recording telemetry t

TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation. TikTok also has history of recording telemetry that’s extremely alarming. Look into what is mined. Look into how algorithms get optimized to influence behavior. See a recent paper on this with using social media to shut down a power plant. Memetic warfare is real and it’s been going on in cyberspace for a while now. Every single bit of information is manipulation. Every social network is a memetic warfare piece and TikTok is a primary target. Lol at the downvoting. Bunch of brainwashed people here already.

jhardy54 6y ago
> TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation Citation needed. Come on.
- dfischer 6y ago
  Every statement doesn’t need a citation. Come on. Propaganda is real. If you don’t think that all social networks are mechanisms to imprint minds you’re either idealist or compromised. Yawn to the downvotes. Keep them coming. Your naïveté is plain.
  - CraigJPerry 6y ago
    So why not focus on Facebook? Why not do something meaningful, anything, with a company which is actually beholden to us law? Seems like targetting the biggest bang for buck would be a good place to start and THEN move on to others, no?
    - dfischer 6y ago
      It’s not mutually exclusive. Facebook is complicit. TikTok however is specifically a unique entity on its own. The demographics that use it are of critical interest to persuade additionally the data is directly at risk of being used as information warfare on increasingly elevated state cyber warfare tactics. Follow the trail of information. Look into what’s going in across the stack hardware to software to networks. There’s a massive shift the past couple years.
      - bkor 6y ago
        Facebook has been used for misinformation for a significant longer amount of time. Usually I get annoyed when people say something like "but what about X", but in this case it's a case of one company often being proven to manipulate, distort, etc (Facebook) vs a possibility that another company might do that.
        dfischer 6y ago
        It’s not a possibility that another company is doing it, it’s about the state actors involved in doing it and otherwise unknown parties. In the end it’s no specific company that is responsible as the aggregate whole of all data available and the mechanisms to algorithmically control content is the sophistication of manipulation going on today.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  My optimistic side says that if 60 second short videos were ideologically useful, CIA (or your favourite "They") would have weaponised them back in the 1960s[1]. My pessimistic side says they probably are, and maybe they even did. https://www.thinkbox.tv/research/thinkbox-research/a-matter-of-time-the-importance-of-time-length-in-tv-advertising/ https://www.thinkbox.tv/research/thinkbox-research/a-matter-... [1] CIA didn't exist before 1947, so it would have to have been a different they for late 1920s, or even a different medium for "Remember the Maine!" Bonus blog: https://joshuaspodek.com/north-korean-propaganda-our-advertising-part-1 https://joshuaspodek.com/north-korean-propaganda-our-adverti...
  - dfischer 6y ago
    Most definitely cia has a history with manipulating information. But at the point of information, how do you know what to even trust at any level? Evidence can be provided for anything. Information and disinformation all at the same time. This is only increasing - how will anyone be able to sort themselves out? I’m not so sure it’s possible. https://youtu.be/IQPsKvG6WMI https://youtu.be/IQPsKvG6WMI Also 60 seconds of video is a ton of information. And it’s not just one video at a time. The total session aggregated per user per active user is way higher than that. These are behaviors where users use the app all day. Their entire worldview is based on the content within the social network experience.
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      thoughts on sorting oneself out, albeit with difficulty: seek variety of manipulated information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24600424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24600424 systematically analyse received information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23897577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23897577 analyse especially source levels: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24459177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24459177 compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24403135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24403135 and remember we may have evolved big energy-guzzling brains in order to see through primate politics.
      - 6y ago
amake 6y ago
> TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation Unlike the Boomers, who most definitely haven't been brainwashed by right-wing propaganda on Facebook and Fox News?
- dfischer 6y ago
  That’s already been known and within US soil. Now it’s the younger generation - it doesn’t make it mutually exclusive. If anything it shows the complete onslaught on all ends to undermine the stability of a nation in a way that’s never been possible before due to mass media and the internet. Broadcast is entirely unidirectional. You’re absolutely correct that brainwashing happens on those mediums. It’s entirely interesting on one hand and entirely alarming on another. At this rate I’m not sure what the world at large can do given the technology out there to manipulate the populace. It leads to some very critical questions on how to exist.
altacc 6y ago
> TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation. You don't have to look far to know this hypothesis won't stand up to any scrutiny. Not only are TikTok users typically in the age range less likely to vote, but everyone is susceptible to propaganda and lies. There is a lot of US produced propaganda out there aimed at the older generations which is being lapped up by a public thirsty for negative partisanship and divisive rhetoric. If the Tiktok generation has been undermined, then it's by the older generations who benefited from more favorable situations, grabbed the wealth and power for themselves, pulled the ladder up and now refuse to see how any of this is an issue and will fight to maintain an unequal situation as long as it favors them.
- dfischer 6y ago
  Not voting is a behavior pattern. Any behavior can be influenced by information propagation. The behavior of not voting has its own second order of effects. Also rooted in not believing in the structure one is participating in. But that’s less my point, it’s more about the methods and attack vectors being an increased surface area now than ever before. See here on why more so with TikTok generation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24614815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24614815 Also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management “Chinese military scholars argue that their nation has a long history of conducting "psychological operations", a phrase that connotes important aspects of strategic deception and, to a certain degree, what the US Department of Defense portrays as perception management. For example, several articles published by the PLA's Academy of Military Science (AMS) journal Zhongguo Junshi Kexue, examine psychological warfare and psychological operations mainly as a deception-oriented function of military strategy.” China are extremely skilled at psyops.
Scapeghost 6y ago
Kettle, meet Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Twitter, Reddit, HN.
- dfischer 6y ago
  Indeed. Again there’s no question the attack vectors - however dismissing it as “kettle” or “them too” solves nothing and contributes to making the situation worse. Every comment I make is being downvoted yet there’s a critical point that’s either entirely dismissed as insignificant because others are doing it too or divorced from the ability to reason about information warfare and it’s implications. Oh well at least I tried.
  - CraigJPerry 6y ago
    That’s not really what’s happening though. People are reading your premise that tiktok is a viable mechanism for influencing behaviour of its users, they are then pointing out far bigger examples of the ability you cite (Facebook, Google, Twitter) to which you say that’s different and we need to focus on tiktok because good reasons and not because china but i cant elaborate on good reasons. At which point you’re being disingenuous.
    - dfischer 6y ago
      I never said to focus on TikTok. I’m saying they aren’t mutually exclusive at all.
- nicoburns 6y ago
  And particularly Instagram, Snapchat for the younger generation.
  - dfischer 6y ago
    And add every single site that has user generated content. If an algorithm can influence the behavior of the users, it’s being done at a state level.
tester34 6y ago
What makes you think that zoomers are more likely to be influenced by social media than boomers or millenials?
- dfischer 6y ago
  I don’t think they’re any less or any more other than the potential net vectors exposed. A boomer typically has traditional media as a source of information which shapes their world view. These channels have their own programming and narratives. The zoomers are entirely on internet platforms which has a higher degree of manipulation. Every single person is mined against. Every single person gets optimized against. There’s more room for coercion based on the algorithmic use targeting demographics, and with the capability of individual optimization with machine learning tech. If the typical “hacker” can launch a botnet with GPT2 and automate conversation and thread demographics based on interactions putting a “group” into a human in loop pattern with a goal ... imagine what state actors are doing.
  - tester34 6y ago
    >If the typical “hacker” can launch a botnet with GPT2 and automate conversation and thread demographics based on interactions putting a “group” into a human in loop pattern with a goal ... imagine what state actors are doing. It scares me everytime I think about it how little $$ you need in order to reach e.g Reddit's front page. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAkUs3urrg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAkUs3urrg
    - dfischer 6y ago
      Precisely. It’s incredibly alarming what one can do with very little resources. It’s downright horrifying or exciting when realizing what one can do with more than average resources. In a way, that’s why I think the battleground is more “weird” than ever. It’s not just state actors, it’s factions of organized and convergent groups using memetic warfare. Some groups naturally converge towards each other. Take the anon’s, and various sects then overlay it with state actor and your smaller groups. Weird nameless stuff of massive influence and self organization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management
danmg 6y ago
The Fox News generation seems the most malleable to propaganda.

jhardy54 6y ago

> TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation Citation needed. Come on.

dfischer 6y ago
Every statement doesn’t need a citation. Come on. Propaganda is real. If you don’t think that all social networks are mechanisms to imprint minds you’re either idealist or compromised. Yawn to the downvotes. Keep them coming. Your naïveté is plain.
- CraigJPerry 6y ago
  So why not focus on Facebook? Why not do something meaningful, anything, with a company which is actually beholden to us law? Seems like targetting the biggest bang for buck would be a good place to start and THEN move on to others, no?
  - dfischer 6y ago
    It’s not mutually exclusive. Facebook is complicit. TikTok however is specifically a unique entity on its own. The demographics that use it are of critical interest to persuade additionally the data is directly at risk of being used as information warfare on increasingly elevated state cyber warfare tactics. Follow the trail of information. Look into what’s going in across the stack hardware to software to networks. There’s a massive shift the past couple years.
    - bkor 6y ago
      Facebook has been used for misinformation for a significant longer amount of time. Usually I get annoyed when people say something like "but what about X", but in this case it's a case of one company often being proven to manipulate, distort, etc (Facebook) vs a possibility that another company might do that.
      - dfischer 6y ago
        It’s not a possibility that another company is doing it, it’s about the state actors involved in doing it and otherwise unknown parties. In the end it’s no specific company that is responsible as the aggregate whole of all data available and the mechanisms to algorithmically control content is the sophistication of manipulation going on today.
082349872349872 6y ago
My optimistic side says that if 60 second short videos were ideologically useful, CIA (or your favourite "They") would have weaponised them back in the 1960s[1]. My pessimistic side says they probably are, and maybe they even did. https://www.thinkbox.tv/research/thinkbox-research/a-matter-of-time-the-importance-of-time-length-in-tv-advertising/ https://www.thinkbox.tv/research/thinkbox-research/a-matter-... [1] CIA didn't exist before 1947, so it would have to have been a different they for late 1920s, or even a different medium for "Remember the Maine!" Bonus blog: https://joshuaspodek.com/north-korean-propaganda-our-advertising-part-1 https://joshuaspodek.com/north-korean-propaganda-our-adverti...
- dfischer 6y ago
  Most definitely cia has a history with manipulating information. But at the point of information, how do you know what to even trust at any level? Evidence can be provided for anything. Information and disinformation all at the same time. This is only increasing - how will anyone be able to sort themselves out? I’m not so sure it’s possible. https://youtu.be/IQPsKvG6WMI https://youtu.be/IQPsKvG6WMI Also 60 seconds of video is a ton of information. And it’s not just one video at a time. The total session aggregated per user per active user is way higher than that. These are behaviors where users use the app all day. Their entire worldview is based on the content within the social network experience.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    thoughts on sorting oneself out, albeit with difficulty: seek variety of manipulated information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24600424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24600424 systematically analyse received information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23897577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23897577 analyse especially source levels: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24459177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24459177 compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24403135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24403135 and remember we may have evolved big energy-guzzling brains in order to see through primate politics.
    - 6y ago

amake 6y ago

> TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation Unlike the Boomers, who most definitely haven't been brainwashed by right-wing propaganda on Facebook and Fox News?

dfischer 6y ago
That’s already been known and within US soil. Now it’s the younger generation - it doesn’t make it mutually exclusive. If anything it shows the complete onslaught on all ends to undermine the stability of a nation in a way that’s never been possible before due to mass media and the internet. Broadcast is entirely unidirectional. You’re absolutely correct that brainwashing happens on those mediums. It’s entirely interesting on one hand and entirely alarming on another. At this rate I’m not sure what the world at large can do given the technology out there to manipulate the populace. It leads to some very critical questions on how to exist.

altacc 6y ago

> TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation. You don't have to look far to know this hypothesis won't stand up to any scrutiny. Not only are TikTok users typically in the age range less likely to vote, but everyone is susceptible to propaganda and lies. There is a lot of US produced propaganda out there aimed at the older generations which is being lapped up by a public thirsty for negative partisanship and divisive rhetoric. If the Tiktok generation has been undermined, then it's by the older generations who benefited from more favorable situations, grabbed the wealth and power for themselves, pulled the ladder up and now refuse to see how any of this is an issue and will fight to maintain an unequal situation as long as it favors them.

dfischer 6y ago
Not voting is a behavior pattern. Any behavior can be influenced by information propagation. The behavior of not voting has its own second order of effects. Also rooted in not believing in the structure one is participating in. But that’s less my point, it’s more about the methods and attack vectors being an increased surface area now than ever before. See here on why more so with TikTok generation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24614815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24614815 Also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management “Chinese military scholars argue that their nation has a long history of conducting "psychological operations", a phrase that connotes important aspects of strategic deception and, to a certain degree, what the US Department of Defense portrays as perception management. For example, several articles published by the PLA's Academy of Military Science (AMS) journal Zhongguo Junshi Kexue, examine psychological warfare and psychological operations mainly as a deception-oriented function of military strategy.” China are extremely skilled at psyops.

Scapeghost 6y ago

Kettle, meet Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Twitter, Reddit, HN.

dfischer 6y ago
Indeed. Again there’s no question the attack vectors - however dismissing it as “kettle” or “them too” solves nothing and contributes to making the situation worse. Every comment I make is being downvoted yet there’s a critical point that’s either entirely dismissed as insignificant because others are doing it too or divorced from the ability to reason about information warfare and it’s implications. Oh well at least I tried.
- CraigJPerry 6y ago
  That’s not really what’s happening though. People are reading your premise that tiktok is a viable mechanism for influencing behaviour of its users, they are then pointing out far bigger examples of the ability you cite (Facebook, Google, Twitter) to which you say that’s different and we need to focus on tiktok because good reasons and not because china but i cant elaborate on good reasons. At which point you’re being disingenuous.
  - dfischer 6y ago
    I never said to focus on TikTok. I’m saying they aren’t mutually exclusive at all.
nicoburns 6y ago
And particularly Instagram, Snapchat for the younger generation.
- dfischer 6y ago
  And add every single site that has user generated content. If an algorithm can influence the behavior of the users, it’s being done at a state level.

tester34 6y ago

What makes you think that zoomers are more likely to be influenced by social media than boomers or millenials?

dfischer 6y ago
I don’t think they’re any less or any more other than the potential net vectors exposed. A boomer typically has traditional media as a source of information which shapes their world view. These channels have their own programming and narratives. The zoomers are entirely on internet platforms which has a higher degree of manipulation. Every single person is mined against. Every single person gets optimized against. There’s more room for coercion based on the algorithmic use targeting demographics, and with the capability of individual optimization with machine learning tech. If the typical “hacker” can launch a botnet with GPT2 and automate conversation and thread demographics based on interactions putting a “group” into a human in loop pattern with a goal ... imagine what state actors are doing.
- tester34 6y ago
  >If the typical “hacker” can launch a botnet with GPT2 and automate conversation and thread demographics based on interactions putting a “group” into a human in loop pattern with a goal ... imagine what state actors are doing. It scares me everytime I think about it how little $$ you need in order to reach e.g Reddit's front page. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAkUs3urrg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAkUs3urrg
  - dfischer 6y ago
    Precisely. It’s incredibly alarming what one can do with very little resources. It’s downright horrifying or exciting when realizing what one can do with more than average resources. In a way, that’s why I think the battleground is more “weird” than ever. It’s not just state actors, it’s factions of organized and convergent groups using memetic warfare. Some groups naturally converge towards each other. Take the anon’s, and various sects then overlay it with state actor and your smaller groups. Weird nameless stuff of massive influence and self organization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management

danmg 6y ago

The Fox News generation seems the most malleable to propaganda.