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https://rsf.org/en/ranking https://rsf.org/en/ranking It seems you are not that right.

axaxs 6y ago
And it seems anyone who has traveled outside of their home country recognizes this list as the bullshit that it is. Please stop linking it.
- wutwutwutwut 6y ago
  Any source for that, looks pretty good to me? Been to 30 or so different countries but not entirely sure why traveling abroad is relevant.
  - sdoering 6y ago
    You probably won't get a reply. At least a rational one. I experienced similar sentiment here on HN when discussion the topic of freedom a while back. Reporters without borders is probably one of the best sources to evaluate the quality of Freedom of Press worldwide. But for some people arguing that not all is great with their freedom in the US challenges a part of their identity. And that makes rational discussion at least difficult. As an example: Growing up near the Iron Curtain (on the western side) I believed for a long time, that we were the universally free side, while there was no freedom in the east. During the last 10 years or so I realized that there were freedoms on the other side I didn't know of. And have never had in this so called free society. I came to realize that there are different freedoms and that every society has different limits to these freedoms. Sometimes even within one country there are different limits to the same freedom for different social groups. Take Germany for example. The freedom to receive a good to great education depends massively on the affluency of one's family. There is nearly no chance of social movement for the poor. Or take the freedom to tell your boss what a bad idea it is to increase dividends for shareholders by 10% while letting people go (with the official reason being told is, that the company is struggling) and telling the rest, that there is no mt enough earnings to warrant a raise. I know people who were fired because of this. Or take the outcry at Google when someone at Google published an internal mail with right wing leaning (if I remember correctly). I am very much left leaning, but I would not challenge some parts of the ideological agendas being pushed at my workplace because I fear being ostracized. So to make a long argument short I think freedom isn't an absolute. And the ideology behind it is often part of someone's identity. That makes rational discussion difficult.
    - ves 6y ago
      Oh, well, hold on on that Google point. The problem with the Damore note wasn’t that it was right-leaning, or that it was contrary to accepted wisdom or outside the Overton window; the problem with the Damore note was that it deliberately and actively impugned the abilities of certain minorities and called into question whether they actually belonged at Google or whether the environment had been changed in a negative way to accommodate them, in a note authored and published within Google. That is definitely the creation of a hostile workplace environment, if not straight harassment; the leaning, relative veracity, or content of the note isn’t really important in light of that fact. And he was fired for a violation of Google’s code of conduct. To wit: > Damore withdrew his complaint with the National Labor Relations Board before the board released any official findings. However, shortly before the withdrawal, an internal NLRB memo found that his firing was legal. The memo, which was not released publicly until February 2018, said that while the law shielded him from being fired solely for criticizing Google, it did not protect discriminatory statements, that his memo's "statements regarding biological differences between the sexes were so harmful, discriminatory, and disruptive as to be unprotected", and that these "discriminatory statements", not his criticisms of Google, were the reason for his firing. From the Wikipedia article. If he had published that note independently, ie using his own resources and not an internal mailing list, then you might have just thought him an asshole, and found him difficult to work with, say. But he didn’t.
    - Fnoord 6y ago
      > As an example: Growing up near the Iron Curtain (on the western side) I believed for a long time, that we were the universally free side, while there was no freedom in the east. > During the last 10 years or so I realized that there were freedoms on the other side I didn't know of. And have never had in this so called free society. Mind sharing some examples?
      - ithkuil 6y ago
        I think he mentioned indirectly the freedom to have a good education independently on one's parents wealth.
      - sdoering 6y ago
  - axaxs 6y ago
    So, I'm not arguing "USA #1". Never would, and to be honest, I haven't been to every country to compare. But their reasoning for ranking it low is 'Trump cracking down' blah blah. Go to CNN's website right now, their top headline is literally calling him a sham. The press here is free to do this, naturally, despite alarmist theories. Some of the countries ranked higher(in rank = lower number) are not even so safe to be in. How can you consider liberty among a place people can't even freely go where they want to report?
- rishav_sharan 6y ago
  I'd say that as someone who actually has traveled outside their country, this list seems pretty fair to me ( at least for the countries I have traveled to or have friends/family staying in). what is your exact bone of contention? Methodology or specific country's ranking?
iamsb 6y ago
In that ranking India is only 0.01 points ahead of pakistan. Does not pass my smell test about its methodology to be honest.
- rishav_sharan 6y ago
  As an Indian, knowing the journalistic persecution and state of free speech in India, I wouldn't be surprised if India is tied up with Pakistan. Here is some stuff to read up on this http://www.rightsrisks.org/banner/india-medias-crackdown-during-covid-19-lockdown-2/ http://www.rightsrisks.org/banner/india-medias-crackdown-dur... http://attacksonrtiusers.org/ http://attacksonrtiusers.org/
  - _8gfe 6y ago
    This is totally wrong. We have free speech but the major problem is that poor and educated aren't ready for this level of openness in our society.
    - quirmian 6y ago
      And this statement here (one I’ve heard before from others as well) demonstrates one of our biggest problems (speaking as someone who grew up in India) - and makes my blood boil. Without respect for the individual and individual rights, Indian society will not progress. Sitting on your high horse and making judgements about how the poor and uneducated (or any other group) aren’t ready for free speech is not the way.
    - rishav_sharan 6y ago
      Here's something fresh for today; Amnesty India quits India operations due to govt' reprisals. https://amnesty.org.in/news-update/amnesty-international-india-halts-its-work-on-upholding-human-rights-in-india-due-to-reprisal-from-government-of-india-2/ https://amnesty.org.in/news-update/amnesty-international-ind... Reality, I fear is fairly dystopic and I can keep posting such news articles all day which show India's slide into Authoritarianism.
- statictype 6y ago
tristor 6y ago
Their methodology seems strongly politically motivated, because they rank Germany very highly despite the repression of speech related to Turkey by journalists in Germany. Germany literally made certain types of speech illegal for geopolitical reasons because of their ties to Turkey. Perhaps these rankings would have been believable 5 years ago, but today, they are not. The United States is also rated much too low here, which also stinks of political motivation. While we do have a President that can't seem to help but open his mouth to release stupidity and toxicity, the US has the strongest legal protections of speech and press in the world, and the only government action against journalists that might shift this belief is the ongoing case with Julian Assange, too recent to have been reflected in these rankings. There is, to my knowledge, only one country which has Constitutionally protected free speech and it's the United States. There are censorship laws on the books in most other countries, either in fact, or in actuality. Germany for instance censors many types of speech. You may have some argument that this is a good thing, but nonetheless it shouldn't rank higher on any unbiased free speech index than the US, and yet here is one in which it is more than 30 positions higher ranked.

And it seems anyone who has traveled outside of their home country recognizes this list as the bullshit that it is. Please stop linking it.

wutwutwutwut 6y ago
Any source for that, looks pretty good to me? Been to 30 or so different countries but not entirely sure why traveling abroad is relevant.
- sdoering 6y ago
  You probably won't get a reply. At least a rational one. I experienced similar sentiment here on HN when discussion the topic of freedom a while back. Reporters without borders is probably one of the best sources to evaluate the quality of Freedom of Press worldwide. But for some people arguing that not all is great with their freedom in the US challenges a part of their identity. And that makes rational discussion at least difficult. As an example: Growing up near the Iron Curtain (on the western side) I believed for a long time, that we were the universally free side, while there was no freedom in the east. During the last 10 years or so I realized that there were freedoms on the other side I didn't know of. And have never had in this so called free society. I came to realize that there are different freedoms and that every society has different limits to these freedoms. Sometimes even within one country there are different limits to the same freedom for different social groups. Take Germany for example. The freedom to receive a good to great education depends massively on the affluency of one's family. There is nearly no chance of social movement for the poor. Or take the freedom to tell your boss what a bad idea it is to increase dividends for shareholders by 10% while letting people go (with the official reason being told is, that the company is struggling) and telling the rest, that there is no mt enough earnings to warrant a raise. I know people who were fired because of this. Or take the outcry at Google when someone at Google published an internal mail with right wing leaning (if I remember correctly). I am very much left leaning, but I would not challenge some parts of the ideological agendas being pushed at my workplace because I fear being ostracized. So to make a long argument short I think freedom isn't an absolute. And the ideology behind it is often part of someone's identity. That makes rational discussion difficult.
  - ves 6y ago
    Oh, well, hold on on that Google point. The problem with the Damore note wasn’t that it was right-leaning, or that it was contrary to accepted wisdom or outside the Overton window; the problem with the Damore note was that it deliberately and actively impugned the abilities of certain minorities and called into question whether they actually belonged at Google or whether the environment had been changed in a negative way to accommodate them, in a note authored and published within Google. That is definitely the creation of a hostile workplace environment, if not straight harassment; the leaning, relative veracity, or content of the note isn’t really important in light of that fact. And he was fired for a violation of Google’s code of conduct. To wit: > Damore withdrew his complaint with the National Labor Relations Board before the board released any official findings. However, shortly before the withdrawal, an internal NLRB memo found that his firing was legal. The memo, which was not released publicly until February 2018, said that while the law shielded him from being fired solely for criticizing Google, it did not protect discriminatory statements, that his memo's "statements regarding biological differences between the sexes were so harmful, discriminatory, and disruptive as to be unprotected", and that these "discriminatory statements", not his criticisms of Google, were the reason for his firing. From the Wikipedia article. If he had published that note independently, ie using his own resources and not an internal mailing list, then you might have just thought him an asshole, and found him difficult to work with, say. But he didn’t.
  - Fnoord 6y ago
    > As an example: Growing up near the Iron Curtain (on the western side) I believed for a long time, that we were the universally free side, while there was no freedom in the east. > During the last 10 years or so I realized that there were freedoms on the other side I didn't know of. And have never had in this so called free society. Mind sharing some examples?
    - ithkuil 6y ago
      I think he mentioned indirectly the freedom to have a good education independently on one's parents wealth.
    - sdoering 6y ago
- axaxs 6y ago
  So, I'm not arguing "USA #1". Never would, and to be honest, I haven't been to every country to compare. But their reasoning for ranking it low is 'Trump cracking down' blah blah. Go to CNN's website right now, their top headline is literally calling him a sham. The press here is free to do this, naturally, despite alarmist theories. Some of the countries ranked higher(in rank = lower number) are not even so safe to be in. How can you consider liberty among a place people can't even freely go where they want to report?
rishav_sharan 6y ago
I'd say that as someone who actually has traveled outside their country, this list seems pretty fair to me ( at least for the countries I have traveled to or have friends/family staying in). what is your exact bone of contention? Methodology or specific country's ranking?

iamsb 6y ago

In that ranking India is only 0.01 points ahead of pakistan. Does not pass my smell test about its methodology to be honest.

rishav_sharan 6y ago
As an Indian, knowing the journalistic persecution and state of free speech in India, I wouldn't be surprised if India is tied up with Pakistan. Here is some stuff to read up on this http://www.rightsrisks.org/banner/india-medias-crackdown-during-covid-19-lockdown-2/ http://www.rightsrisks.org/banner/india-medias-crackdown-dur... http://attacksonrtiusers.org/ http://attacksonrtiusers.org/
- _8gfe 6y ago
  This is totally wrong. We have free speech but the major problem is that poor and educated aren't ready for this level of openness in our society.
  - quirmian 6y ago
    And this statement here (one I’ve heard before from others as well) demonstrates one of our biggest problems (speaking as someone who grew up in India) - and makes my blood boil. Without respect for the individual and individual rights, Indian society will not progress. Sitting on your high horse and making judgements about how the poor and uneducated (or any other group) aren’t ready for free speech is not the way.
  - rishav_sharan 6y ago
    Here's something fresh for today; Amnesty India quits India operations due to govt' reprisals. https://amnesty.org.in/news-update/amnesty-international-india-halts-its-work-on-upholding-human-rights-in-india-due-to-reprisal-from-government-of-india-2/ https://amnesty.org.in/news-update/amnesty-international-ind... Reality, I fear is fairly dystopic and I can keep posting such news articles all day which show India's slide into Authoritarianism.
statictype 6y ago

tristor 6y ago

Their methodology seems strongly politically motivated, because they rank Germany very highly despite the repression of speech related to Turkey by journalists in Germany. Germany literally made certain types of speech illegal for geopolitical reasons because of their ties to Turkey. Perhaps these rankings would have been believable 5 years ago, but today, they are not. The United States is also rated much too low here, which also stinks of political motivation. While we do have a President that can't seem to help but open his mouth to release stupidity and toxicity, the US has the strongest legal protections of speech and press in the world, and the only government action against journalists that might shift this belief is the ongoing case with Julian Assange, too recent to have been reflected in these rankings. There is, to my knowledge, only one country which has Constitutionally protected free speech and it's the United States. There are censorship laws on the books in most other countries, either in fact, or in actuality. Germany for instance censors many types of speech. You may have some argument that this is a good thing, but nonetheless it shouldn't rank higher on any unbiased free speech index than the US, and yet here is one in which it is more than 30 positions higher ranked.