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Propaganda. You don't have to bother making troll farm accounts to spread misinformation and sow doubt when you control the platform and can create and drip con

Propaganda. You don't have to bother making troll farm accounts to spread misinformation and sow doubt when you control the platform and can create and drip content you want into peoples feeds, and you know what they like, you're already serving them an addictive stream of content based on their behaviors.

UncleMeat 6y ago
What makes TikTok different than literally any other website in this manner?
- guywhocodes 6y ago
  None really, the next Chinese successful "social media" platform will face the same treatment
- mtrpcic 6y ago
  ...being controlled by the CCP is what makes it different. All of these sites/apps have the ability to shove propaganda in the faces of millions of people, only one of them is run by a government.
  - FpUser 6y ago
    And what prohibits any three letter agency hiring some intermediary and do the same thing on Facebook for example?
    - pessimizer 6y ago
      > hiring some intermediaries There's absolutely no need. Facebook cooperates with three-letter agencies, and we expect them to.
      - FpUser 6y ago
        You seriously think that if one of those decided to influence election (for a greater good of course) you would expect direct cooperation of FB in the matter? I'd think that the guilty party should be prosecuted for doing things like that.
        stjohnswarts 6y ago
        He's talking about handing over information, not launching a "elect the next Manchurian candidate" campaign run by the NSA.
        FpUser 6y ago
        Then he'd completely missed my original point that was about practical inability to prevent that exact scenario - "elect the next Manchurian candidate campaign run by the NSA". I do not think juducial review will enter the picture here. I am not sure what practical legal mechanism is available to prevent such scenario. I guess it would run the risk of being exposed by some whistleblower but with the latest developments in the area the chances are that it wont.
        jacobush 6y ago
        At this point I have doubts about who employs the Manchurian candidates in the first place, people behind the big companies or the three letter agencies. There are revolving doors between them.
  - xvector 6y ago
    > only one of them is run by a government. And the rest are run by the ultra-rich. They care about the interests of the Americans not much more than the CCP.
    - aggronn 6y ago
      Taking this as true, are you suggesting we should have, instead of our (expanding on what I think you're saying) "non-democratic capitalist ologopoly", have our important companies and institutions be run the by the CCP? Two wrongs don't make a right. Work to improve our system rather than using our failures to normalize CCP oppression and violence.
      - Talanes 6y ago
        If the point is to send a message about normalizing the CCP, then Apple's gotta go too.
        aggronn 6y ago
        Yes, there's a lot we need to be doing to put pressure on the CCP that we aren't currently doing, and it also doesn't need to be binary. There's a difference between Apple doing business in China, and a Chinese company doing business in the US. China has considerable influence on Apple, but not as much as it does on TikTok. Tim Cook's family isn't at risk of jail if he criticizes the CCP.
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    The bigger thing is them dragnetting 100 million Americans for data like interests, conversations, contacts, location, private videos, etc. Not to much potential for pushing backdoors into to target individuals.
  - p1necone 6y ago
    There are a lot of Chinese companies that do business in the USA, why is Tik Tok special?
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    Surely there are other websites like this. Bytedance isn't the only chinese company that exists. Should my browser not allow me to visit those websites?
- drak0n1c 6y ago
  Deliberately curated recommendation algorithms to maximize negative perceptions could conceivably be worse than those that do such accidentally.
pastaking 6y ago
Wouldn’t this be better handled by a more sophisticated solution like some kind of law or governance organization? Banning specific apps is like whack a mole. There will also be other countries with opposing ideological beliefs - we probably shouldn’t want to play whack a mole country by country either.
- bamboozled 6y ago
  This is my sentiment, is it's TikTok, it will be rebranded as DikDok next, then what? We block one app at a time?
  - abc-xyz 6y ago
    Why not? It’s basically the only app China have managed to make popular in USA. And they’ve had to blow billions on ads to do so. I do believe it would be best to block all apps owned by the Chinese, but blocking them one by one would work as well, because it’s incredibly difficult and expensive to obtain the userbase that makes the app worth blocking.
- libraryatnight 6y ago
  I don't really know what to do about it, I just understand why one might be concerned. It's a wild world. I feel like banning things because they're a possible threat is a slippery slope.
- therealx 6y ago
  I agree, and we need something that's equal across the board which will try to handle domestic companies doing things like Facebooks mood experiments.
Aperocky 6y ago
I don't have tiktok but according to anecdotal evidence from family members who do, the propaganda you describe seemed to be people doing stupid things in their bathroom while getting hurt in the process. You'd probably say 'potential' but just think about it, banning something for 'potential'. Is that where we are right now?
- libraryatnight 6y ago
  I didn't say it should be banned, just that I understand the threat.
- therealx 6y ago
  The problem is they could pull a Facebook and show certain content to change peoples moods intentionally. It's already proven possible. That said, I'm all for legislation against all social media companies.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Changing their mood would be one thing, though I doubt it'd work on TikTok as well as it might on FB, people go to TikTok for specific types of content. Propaganda would be quite another, TikTok's format doesn't seem to really work for that kind of content, it's short videos, not infographics and texts.
xvector 6y ago
No different than MSM owners in the US using propaganda to manipulate hundreds of millions of Americans to their own ways.
nmfisher 6y ago
Will the US apply the same rules and ban Facebook, given actual evidence of Russian propaganda/misinformation during the last election?
pier25 6y ago
So like Youtube or Facebook?
heroprotagonist 6y ago
Look how that turned out with Fox News. We gave an Australian US citizenship so he could get past the limit on foreign ownership of TV stations. He jumped right into bed with US political parties and has a chokehold on one of them by building itself, intentionally, as its media arm. That said, I think the internet should be free for the most part. If we have to kick them out of the country and deprive them our markets then this should be done by law instead of by authoritarian decree. Google and Apple already have rules against apps that violate laws. We had these laws and watered them down before because it would benefit a particular political party by putting an influence empire behind it. We just need to update and modernize the laws. Define specific things that are allowed and not allowed. EG, GDPR-like privacy rules about not sending user data to Asia, with stiff penalties. Restrictions against allowing investment from individual and corporations (and subsidiaries) on a specific watch list, along with defined criteria for getting on that list. EG, Tencent's contending years ago to become the social credit provider for China to help manipulate populace behavior. I'd consider that a human right violation worthy of entry to a list after careful review. Maybe if we had such things in place, the FBI wouldn't have had to wander around to all of the major US businesses a year or two ago, quietly begging them not to use Kaspersky because it was potentially sending data to Russia. They would either have not been on an approved vendor list due to their sanctions or they could provide sufficient evidence to get them on the list and then demand removal instead of beg for companies to do it voluntarily. And if strengthening these laws means kicking out Fox News as well, so be it.
russli1993 6y ago
And i just saw an anti-China anti-ccp video on tiktok yesterday. A number of them last week. I saw pro Hong Kong Independence video too. If the ccp is manipulating public opinion using tiktok, they are doing a terrible job at it. Bytedance is incorporated in Cayman islands. From a legal perspective it's not subjected to any Chinese laws, including the intelligence law. The tiktok subsidiary is not under Chinese law as well. The management of tiktok is all Americans. And Tiktok is run by American employees, there are 1500 of them. If Chinese government is forcing them to manipulate the algorithm in favor of Chinese, they would have said something in public by now. Also, 2 out of 4 board members of the company is none Chinese. American investor Sequoia and BlackRock owns 40% of the company. They obviously would know if the company is owned by the government right? They also know the day to day operations of the company and they would know if tiktok is being used by the Chinese government for propaganda purposes right? Honestly, given the amount of smearing and disinformation about China and Chinese government in Western media, I can honestly say the ccp is super weak at doing any kind of PR messaging. Half the world still believes the coronavirus is manufacturered by the Wuhan lab and is released to world as a bio weapon. Even when scientists have repeatedly debunked it as a conspiracy theory. It's almost as if ccp isn't even trying at controlling the public opinion. Just let the rumors fly wild. Back in April, I have seen so many videos about this conspiracy theory on Tiktok. Meanwhile, look at how fox news, PragerU and other conservative media are blaming China and defending Trump for things US scientists, public health experts and policy makers have called him on. Look at how they have attacked Dem cities and Dem leaders while promoting themselves as the just and righteous. This looks more like manipulating public opinion and pushing out propaganda to me.

UncleMeat 6y ago

What makes TikTok different than literally any other website in this manner?

guywhocodes 6y ago
None really, the next Chinese successful "social media" platform will face the same treatment
mtrpcic 6y ago
...being controlled by the CCP is what makes it different. All of these sites/apps have the ability to shove propaganda in the faces of millions of people, only one of them is run by a government.
- FpUser 6y ago
  And what prohibits any three letter agency hiring some intermediary and do the same thing on Facebook for example?
  - pessimizer 6y ago
    > hiring some intermediaries There's absolutely no need. Facebook cooperates with three-letter agencies, and we expect them to.
    - FpUser 6y ago
      You seriously think that if one of those decided to influence election (for a greater good of course) you would expect direct cooperation of FB in the matter? I'd think that the guilty party should be prosecuted for doing things like that.
      - stjohnswarts 6y ago
        He's talking about handing over information, not launching a "elect the next Manchurian candidate" campaign run by the NSA.
        FpUser 6y ago
        Then he'd completely missed my original point that was about practical inability to prevent that exact scenario - "elect the next Manchurian candidate campaign run by the NSA". I do not think juducial review will enter the picture here. I am not sure what practical legal mechanism is available to prevent such scenario. I guess it would run the risk of being exposed by some whistleblower but with the latest developments in the area the chances are that it wont.
        jacobush 6y ago
        At this point I have doubts about who employs the Manchurian candidates in the first place, people behind the big companies or the three letter agencies. There are revolving doors between them.
- xvector 6y ago
  > only one of them is run by a government. And the rest are run by the ultra-rich. They care about the interests of the Americans not much more than the CCP.
  - aggronn 6y ago
    Taking this as true, are you suggesting we should have, instead of our (expanding on what I think you're saying) "non-democratic capitalist ologopoly", have our important companies and institutions be run the by the CCP? Two wrongs don't make a right. Work to improve our system rather than using our failures to normalize CCP oppression and violence.
    - Talanes 6y ago
      If the point is to send a message about normalizing the CCP, then Apple's gotta go too.
      - aggronn 6y ago
        Yes, there's a lot we need to be doing to put pressure on the CCP that we aren't currently doing, and it also doesn't need to be binary. There's a difference between Apple doing business in China, and a Chinese company doing business in the US. China has considerable influence on Apple, but not as much as it does on TikTok. Tim Cook's family isn't at risk of jail if he criticizes the CCP.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  The bigger thing is them dragnetting 100 million Americans for data like interests, conversations, contacts, location, private videos, etc. Not to much potential for pushing backdoors into to target individuals.
- p1necone 6y ago
  There are a lot of Chinese companies that do business in the USA, why is Tik Tok special?
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  Surely there are other websites like this. Bytedance isn't the only chinese company that exists. Should my browser not allow me to visit those websites?
drak0n1c 6y ago
Deliberately curated recommendation algorithms to maximize negative perceptions could conceivably be worse than those that do such accidentally.

pastaking 6y ago

Wouldn’t this be better handled by a more sophisticated solution like some kind of law or governance organization? Banning specific apps is like whack a mole. There will also be other countries with opposing ideological beliefs - we probably shouldn’t want to play whack a mole country by country either.

bamboozled 6y ago
This is my sentiment, is it's TikTok, it will be rebranded as DikDok next, then what? We block one app at a time?
- abc-xyz 6y ago
  Why not? It’s basically the only app China have managed to make popular in USA. And they’ve had to blow billions on ads to do so. I do believe it would be best to block all apps owned by the Chinese, but blocking them one by one would work as well, because it’s incredibly difficult and expensive to obtain the userbase that makes the app worth blocking.
libraryatnight 6y ago
I don't really know what to do about it, I just understand why one might be concerned. It's a wild world. I feel like banning things because they're a possible threat is a slippery slope.
therealx 6y ago
I agree, and we need something that's equal across the board which will try to handle domestic companies doing things like Facebooks mood experiments.

Aperocky 6y ago

I don't have tiktok but according to anecdotal evidence from family members who do, the propaganda you describe seemed to be people doing stupid things in their bathroom while getting hurt in the process. You'd probably say 'potential' but just think about it, banning something for 'potential'. Is that where we are right now?

libraryatnight 6y ago
I didn't say it should be banned, just that I understand the threat.
therealx 6y ago
The problem is they could pull a Facebook and show certain content to change peoples moods intentionally. It's already proven possible. That said, I'm all for legislation against all social media companies.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Changing their mood would be one thing, though I doubt it'd work on TikTok as well as it might on FB, people go to TikTok for specific types of content. Propaganda would be quite another, TikTok's format doesn't seem to really work for that kind of content, it's short videos, not infographics and texts.

xvector 6y ago

No different than MSM owners in the US using propaganda to manipulate hundreds of millions of Americans to their own ways.

nmfisher 6y ago

Will the US apply the same rules and ban Facebook, given actual evidence of Russian propaganda/misinformation during the last election?

pier25 6y ago

So like Youtube or Facebook?

heroprotagonist 6y ago

Look how that turned out with Fox News. We gave an Australian US citizenship so he could get past the limit on foreign ownership of TV stations. He jumped right into bed with US political parties and has a chokehold on one of them by building itself, intentionally, as its media arm. That said, I think the internet should be free for the most part. If we have to kick them out of the country and deprive them our markets then this should be done by law instead of by authoritarian decree. Google and Apple already have rules against apps that violate laws. We had these laws and watered them down before because it would benefit a particular political party by putting an influence empire behind it. We just need to update and modernize the laws. Define specific things that are allowed and not allowed. EG, GDPR-like privacy rules about not sending user data to Asia, with stiff penalties. Restrictions against allowing investment from individual and corporations (and subsidiaries) on a specific watch list, along with defined criteria for getting on that list. EG, Tencent's contending years ago to become the social credit provider for China to help manipulate populace behavior. I'd consider that a human right violation worthy of entry to a list after careful review. Maybe if we had such things in place, the FBI wouldn't have had to wander around to all of the major US businesses a year or two ago, quietly begging them not to use Kaspersky because it was potentially sending data to Russia. They would either have not been on an approved vendor list due to their sanctions or they could provide sufficient evidence to get them on the list and then demand removal instead of beg for companies to do it voluntarily. And if strengthening these laws means kicking out Fox News as well, so be it.

russli1993 6y ago

And i just saw an anti-China anti-ccp video on tiktok yesterday. A number of them last week. I saw pro Hong Kong Independence video too. If the ccp is manipulating public opinion using tiktok, they are doing a terrible job at it. Bytedance is incorporated in Cayman islands. From a legal perspective it's not subjected to any Chinese laws, including the intelligence law. The tiktok subsidiary is not under Chinese law as well. The management of tiktok is all Americans. And Tiktok is run by American employees, there are 1500 of them. If Chinese government is forcing them to manipulate the algorithm in favor of Chinese, they would have said something in public by now. Also, 2 out of 4 board members of the company is none Chinese. American investor Sequoia and BlackRock owns 40% of the company. They obviously would know if the company is owned by the government right? They also know the day to day operations of the company and they would know if tiktok is being used by the Chinese government for propaganda purposes right? Honestly, given the amount of smearing and disinformation about China and Chinese government in Western media, I can honestly say the ccp is super weak at doing any kind of PR messaging. Half the world still believes the coronavirus is manufacturered by the Wuhan lab and is released to world as a bio weapon. Even when scientists have repeatedly debunked it as a conspiracy theory. It's almost as if ccp isn't even trying at controlling the public opinion. Just let the rumors fly wild. Back in April, I have seen so many videos about this conspiracy theory on Tiktok. Meanwhile, look at how fox news, PragerU and other conservative media are blaming China and defending Trump for things US scientists, public health experts and policy makers have called him on. Look at how they have attacked Dem cities and Dem leaders while promoting themselves as the just and righteous. This looks more like manipulating public opinion and pushing out propaganda to me.