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Yes let's suppose I'm a psychopath who is purely interested in self-maximization. I have an opportunity to steal money without getting caught. Why wouldn't I d

Yes let's suppose I'm a psychopath who is purely interested in self-maximization. I have an opportunity to steal money without getting caught. Why wouldn't I do it? If there's a hell then sure I can understand (it would become self maximizing to be legitimately good), otherwise why wouldn't I? I can feign responsibility and make the right moves to get want I want. Again, I can be ruthlessly self-maximizing.

tux1968 6y ago
Yes, a psychopath is just being true to his nature in that case. There's no "responsibility" to other people, just actions and consequences. Those of our ancestors who had a bond with their tribe, and took care of each other, did better and reproduced more than the selfish loners. And most of us are left with those successful strategies baked into us. You're free to choose a different path (if it is even a choice), and there will be no comic-book judgement day... but if the past is anything to go by, it's often a losing strategy. It might not be as clean a getaway as you hoped.
- hnracer 6y ago
  I agree with most of what you wrote here. I would argue two things though (1) modern society is very different from tribal society, I can use intelligence to extract/steal benefit from this new environment without the same social cost that my ancestors would've born in the environment they were adapted for, (2) psychopathy, thievery, jealousy, cheating, lying, etc, are all so common that we may even think they were selected for and evolved, so appealing to selective benefit is not too persuasive for me
wolfram74 6y ago
Taking the long view, collaboration is necessary to live in an environment more hedonistic than primitive technology guy [0]. Collaboration has associated costs, hedging against betrayal, communicating intent, all that jazz. The more people believe they are forced into collaboration with a psychopath, the higher those costs get and the less interesting collaboration happens. Acting like an asshole forces people to live in an asshole universe. [0]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA/vid...
jolux 6y ago
If there’s a hell you can always ask for forgiveness later though, and a lot of Christians believe that Christ died for our sins and they will be washed away if we acknowledge him. If you’re an utter psychopath who will always maximize benefit to themselves, then I don’t quite understand why you care about hell. It’s pretty easy to construct hypotheticals under which ethics are void, but I don’t think they tell us a lot about how we should live our lives as non-psychopaths with a sense of self-preservation.
- hnracer 6y ago
  If I'm a self-maximizing psychopath then of course I wish to avoid hell. Nobody wants that. You are right about the escape clause in Christianity. What I would say is that a nonzero chance of hell is more of a deterrent than a zero chance of hell.
  - erik_seaberg 6y ago
    Is this escape clause really in their doctrine? Pascal’s wager doesn’t make sense if you’re allowed to change your mind after getting a live demo of hell.
  - jolux 6y ago
    I guess I just don’t think that there is a significant number of people who would be mastermind criminals and serial killers and whatever if not for believing in god. Maybe I’m wrong.
azernik 6y ago
Psychopathy is considered a disease because it is quite rare. For most people and for the broader culture, the reaction of a psychopath to a given cultural cue isn't a primary consideration.

tux1968 6y ago

Yes, a psychopath is just being true to his nature in that case. There's no "responsibility" to other people, just actions and consequences. Those of our ancestors who had a bond with their tribe, and took care of each other, did better and reproduced more than the selfish loners. And most of us are left with those successful strategies baked into us. You're free to choose a different path (if it is even a choice), and there will be no comic-book judgement day... but if the past is anything to go by, it's often a losing strategy. It might not be as clean a getaway as you hoped.

hnracer 6y ago
I agree with most of what you wrote here. I would argue two things though (1) modern society is very different from tribal society, I can use intelligence to extract/steal benefit from this new environment without the same social cost that my ancestors would've born in the environment they were adapted for, (2) psychopathy, thievery, jealousy, cheating, lying, etc, are all so common that we may even think they were selected for and evolved, so appealing to selective benefit is not too persuasive for me

wolfram74 6y ago

Taking the long view, collaboration is necessary to live in an environment more hedonistic than primitive technology guy [0]. Collaboration has associated costs, hedging against betrayal, communicating intent, all that jazz. The more people believe they are forced into collaboration with a psychopath, the higher those costs get and the less interesting collaboration happens. Acting like an asshole forces people to live in an asshole universe. [0]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA/vid...

jolux 6y ago

If there’s a hell you can always ask for forgiveness later though, and a lot of Christians believe that Christ died for our sins and they will be washed away if we acknowledge him. If you’re an utter psychopath who will always maximize benefit to themselves, then I don’t quite understand why you care about hell. It’s pretty easy to construct hypotheticals under which ethics are void, but I don’t think they tell us a lot about how we should live our lives as non-psychopaths with a sense of self-preservation.

hnracer 6y ago
If I'm a self-maximizing psychopath then of course I wish to avoid hell. Nobody wants that. You are right about the escape clause in Christianity. What I would say is that a nonzero chance of hell is more of a deterrent than a zero chance of hell.
- erik_seaberg 6y ago
  Is this escape clause really in their doctrine? Pascal’s wager doesn’t make sense if you’re allowed to change your mind after getting a live demo of hell.
- jolux 6y ago
  I guess I just don’t think that there is a significant number of people who would be mastermind criminals and serial killers and whatever if not for believing in god. Maybe I’m wrong.

azernik 6y ago

Psychopathy is considered a disease because it is quite rare. For most people and for the broader culture, the reaction of a psychopath to a given cultural cue isn't a primary consideration.