6 ms·

Biggest advantage of being in an office over being fully remote is that a non-trivial portion of work includes things which should not be documented - convincin

Biggest advantage of being in an office over being fully remote is that a non-trivial portion of work includes things which should not be documented - convincing some stakeholders, navigating inter-/intra-team politics, catching your VP for a quick 2 min resolution while he is walking to the cafe to quickly grab his lunch between his back-to-back-to-back meetings, observing body language to infer what your colleagues are thinking about but NOT saying etc. This is particularly true when you become more senior and replicating that over Zoom is nearly impossible. There are things you simply don't want to put in writing or say over Zoom which are most certainly monitored by the company. And if there are some colleagues who are in office and some who are remote, the ones in office have a massive advantage when everything else is the same.

ry454 6y ago
This matters for senior management only, i.e. those who make decisions. This doesn't matter for middle management (even though they act as if they are senior managers) and that's completely irrelevant for line workers who don't need to "read body language" to get their linear work done.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  Line engineers totally need to read body language. Presenting a paper or design? You need to read when your audience is drifting. Discussing a contentious code review? Body language can tell you loads about how much they are committed to their approach. Mentoring other engineers? Running an ops review? Asking for approval for something? There's a million scenarios where understanding body language makes you a more successful line engineer.
  - dimnsionofsound 6y ago
    Another great reason I want to continue working remote: Why would I want to leak any information in my body language to coworkers or management? I have no idea what they are going to do with said information, and the fact that I'm not already saying whatever it is my body language is communicating means that I would not like to supply it.
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      > I have no idea what they are going to do with said information... Typically, try to make sure that you are comfortable? Humans communicate nonverbally, just like most social animals.
- RestlessMind 6y ago
  > This doesn't matter for middle management Umm what? Based on my 15+ year experience in tech sector (similar for my partner), my take is that in-person interaction is absolutely necessary for the middle management layer (though certainly not sufficient). They need to interact with both the bosses and the trench soldiers. If everything else is held constant (same org, same talent, same level, same effort), an in-office middle manager will absolutely outperform a similar person in a remote setup. I'd go even one step further and say that in-person interaction is critical not only for middle managers but also for those individual contributors who want to jump to management or tech-lead positions.
ThalesX 6y ago
> catching your VP for a quick 2 min resolution while he is walking to the cafe to quickly grab his lunch between his back-to-back-to-back meetings Wouldn't this particular scenario be made more effective and efficient with asynchronous communication? > This is particularly true when you become more senior and replicating that over Zoom is nearly impossible. Most office jobs are not senior roles. In fact, the more senior a person is, the less office face-time they seem to have. > There are things you simply don't want to put in writing or say over Zoom which are most certainly monitored by the company. Phone call? Meet at a cafe? > And if there are some colleagues who are in office and some who are remote, the ones in office have a massive advantage when everything else is the same. I think people should be allowed to play the game as they see fit. If my plans involve a lot of office plays and social maneuvering, of course I'd prefer to be at the office, and I should be allowed to do that alongside the other people that want to engage in such activities. If my plans are to be a reliable worker with no desire to shuffle on the ladder, I might as well enjoy a quiet stay-at-home life with occasional office visits when it suits the projects I am working on, my team members and / or myself.
- RestlessMind 6y ago
  > Wouldn't this particular scenario be made more effective and efficient with asynchronous communication? No way. My VP doesn't have time to read and respond to my carefully crafted email. He might be having 1500+ unread emails. Same with DMs. > In fact, the more senior a person is, the less office face-time they seem to have. This is so contrary to what I have seen. Most senior people (including ICs) are busier in meetings compared to more junior guys. > Phone call? Meh. No body language, no eye contact, less energy in the conversation. > Meet at a cafe? Sure. And once you reach middle management, you will have so many of these cafe meetings that going to the office would be scalable, where you meet everyone. Once a few people do that, everyone who needs these cafe meetings will start doing it because the office is where everyone is. > I think people should be allowed to play the game as they see fit. I mostly agree on this with one caveat. If your remote employees are going to suffer in their career trajectories because of an apparent disadvantage, a company has to be super careful that it won't become a New York Times front page story. Imagine if Microsoft allowed this and a majority of their remote employees are women and a majority of their remote employees are getting promoted at a slower rate than in-office people. It will be an unnecessary headache. Better to nip the problem in the bud.

ry454 6y ago

This matters for senior management only, i.e. those who make decisions. This doesn't matter for middle management (even though they act as if they are senior managers) and that's completely irrelevant for line workers who don't need to "read body language" to get their linear work done.

Pfhreak 6y ago
Line engineers totally need to read body language. Presenting a paper or design? You need to read when your audience is drifting. Discussing a contentious code review? Body language can tell you loads about how much they are committed to their approach. Mentoring other engineers? Running an ops review? Asking for approval for something? There's a million scenarios where understanding body language makes you a more successful line engineer.
- dimnsionofsound 6y ago
  Another great reason I want to continue working remote: Why would I want to leak any information in my body language to coworkers or management? I have no idea what they are going to do with said information, and the fact that I'm not already saying whatever it is my body language is communicating means that I would not like to supply it.
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    > I have no idea what they are going to do with said information... Typically, try to make sure that you are comfortable? Humans communicate nonverbally, just like most social animals.
RestlessMind 6y ago
> This doesn't matter for middle management Umm what? Based on my 15+ year experience in tech sector (similar for my partner), my take is that in-person interaction is absolutely necessary for the middle management layer (though certainly not sufficient). They need to interact with both the bosses and the trench soldiers. If everything else is held constant (same org, same talent, same level, same effort), an in-office middle manager will absolutely outperform a similar person in a remote setup. I'd go even one step further and say that in-person interaction is critical not only for middle managers but also for those individual contributors who want to jump to management or tech-lead positions.

ThalesX 6y ago

> catching your VP for a quick 2 min resolution while he is walking to the cafe to quickly grab his lunch between his back-to-back-to-back meetings Wouldn't this particular scenario be made more effective and efficient with asynchronous communication? > This is particularly true when you become more senior and replicating that over Zoom is nearly impossible. Most office jobs are not senior roles. In fact, the more senior a person is, the less office face-time they seem to have. > There are things you simply don't want to put in writing or say over Zoom which are most certainly monitored by the company. Phone call? Meet at a cafe? > And if there are some colleagues who are in office and some who are remote, the ones in office have a massive advantage when everything else is the same. I think people should be allowed to play the game as they see fit. If my plans involve a lot of office plays and social maneuvering, of course I'd prefer to be at the office, and I should be allowed to do that alongside the other people that want to engage in such activities. If my plans are to be a reliable worker with no desire to shuffle on the ladder, I might as well enjoy a quiet stay-at-home life with occasional office visits when it suits the projects I am working on, my team members and / or myself.

RestlessMind 6y ago
> Wouldn't this particular scenario be made more effective and efficient with asynchronous communication? No way. My VP doesn't have time to read and respond to my carefully crafted email. He might be having 1500+ unread emails. Same with DMs. > In fact, the more senior a person is, the less office face-time they seem to have. This is so contrary to what I have seen. Most senior people (including ICs) are busier in meetings compared to more junior guys. > Phone call? Meh. No body language, no eye contact, less energy in the conversation. > Meet at a cafe? Sure. And once you reach middle management, you will have so many of these cafe meetings that going to the office would be scalable, where you meet everyone. Once a few people do that, everyone who needs these cafe meetings will start doing it because the office is where everyone is. > I think people should be allowed to play the game as they see fit. I mostly agree on this with one caveat. If your remote employees are going to suffer in their career trajectories because of an apparent disadvantage, a company has to be super careful that it won't become a New York Times front page story. Imagine if Microsoft allowed this and a majority of their remote employees are women and a majority of their remote employees are getting promoted at a slower rate than in-office people. It will be an unnecessary headache. Better to nip the problem in the bud.