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Is it moral/ethical to buy a Tesla?

12 points by smalera 6y ago

leetcrew 6y ago
the article does a decent job considering the higher order effects of a purchasing decision. I find it kind of funny that, after talking about trains, ebikes, etc., the "responsible" choice ended up being a $40k car, in large part because $80k was just too expensive.
fsflover 6y ago
To me, there is also a problem of non-free software in their cars, which more and more look like the walled garden of Apple. Why do they have to close it?
maeln 6y ago
I remember a conversation with one of my friend where I expressed my dislike for E. Musk and used it as a reason as to why I would never buy a Tesla ( if I could afford it, one can dream :) ). His answer was simply "Do you think the CEO of Ford, Renault, etc. is more likeable?" and I think it is a really good point. We see them less in the media and they probably don't go on strange Twitter rant, but CEO of other car manufacturer are probably not any better then E. Musk when it comes to worker right and all. Now, I still consider Tesla to be a luxury car, and not a green car. And if you want to be green, buying a second-hand car is often gonna be better than a brand new one, even if electric.
Apreche 6y ago
There is no moral consumption under capitalism. That being said, a car of any kind, even an electric one, ranks very highly on the list of least ethical purchases. Live somewhere with public transportation and/or ride a bicycle to save your soul.
- RhysU 6y ago
  Quite a strong statement that. You would argue that buying medicine for a child is immoral under capitalism? Assisting an elderly family member with their rent? Purchasing canned goods for a food bank? Military spending to assist an invaded country? Research expenditures to improve fuel efficiency? Higher education? Obviously, I am bewildered by the claim. Where might I read more on this perspective?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ykevinator 6y ago
This is so self elevating it makes me sick. Buy the car or don't but don't use it as an excuse to show how great you are
new_realist 6y ago
Teslas don't benefit the environment. For every Tesla sold, they are given pollution credits which they sell to other auto manufacturers to let them pollute more. So, there's no climate advantage to buying Tesla vs. some other car. And given their profligate spending (which generates a lot of carbon) and inefficiencies of manufacturing (headcount/car ratio much higher than the industry average) there may even be a climate disadvantage.
- omarshal 6y ago
  But these companies don't want to pay Tesla for the credits, so if anything good came from it, is that Tesla pushed the rest of the companies to accelerate EV production. For instance, I don't think VW would come with the ID family in 2020 if Tesla didn't exist. Eventually, with such a competitive market it would happen, but I think Tesla accelerated the thing at least a couple of years in advance.
- s_gourichon 6y ago
  If manufacturing+using a Tesla (on average on all lifespan) is indeed greener, and price per pollution credit is well balanced, then the credit machinery economically nudges the equilibrium towards greener overall. That's the theory behind freely exchangeable pollution credit.
bryanlarsen 6y ago
If you believe that it's morally dubious to accept and repay a government loan, then I don't think you can buy a car from anybody.
xiwenc 6y ago
I was secretly hoping the author would end up with an average second hand car of let’s say 10k and donate 70k to non profit orgs that would let’s say plant more trees.
Booktrope 6y ago
All this stuff about Elon Musk. Well, I hope you aren't gonna decide to buy a Ford (Henry Ford, who found time to distribute the world's largest antisemitic newspaper between his auto magnate duties), or Volkwagen (pet project of Adolph Hitler, later leader in emissions testing fraud) or any of those other nice companies that have lent their support and wealth to racism or joined that emissions fraud thing. And as to social responsibility, if we're talking about buying a different car, let's not talk about this in a vacuum. I mean we're talking about companites who became wealthy by building all those cars that were "unsafe at any speed" while fighting safety regs, or that have been moving factories to low wage low worker protection locations while fighting labor laws, or have happily produced Humvees and their ilk while fighting environmental laws, all in cahoots with our oil industry as it spreads disinformation about climate change and political gifts to those who listen. As to subsidies from the government for car companies rather than people in need, well, if that bothers you, best not look into any recent factory location decision of a big manufacturing company pretty much anywhere in the world. So if you're taking the approach suggested in this article, you might want to consider it in context, at least before you feel better about buying on of those cars from one of those companies that hasn't gotten quite as much publicity recently about its leadership or way of doing business. Or you can buy an inexpensive used car made by Volkswagen and feel good about that.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  One might believe there is a difference between Ford, whose founder was icky but long dead, and Tesla, whose founder still currently benefitting from every sale of a product. Volkswagen can be faulted for the testing fraud, IMO, but not its German origin, since again, those people are long dead and therefore not benefitting from sales today.
  - Booktrope 6y ago
    True, these founders are dead. But Ford's family still owns a huge share of the company and has never renounced the patriarch. It's not just testing fraud with Volkwagen, that's just a symptom. Check out, for example, recent reports of their use of forced Uighur labor, for example. These were only stark examples, but you're not really saying, management of any major auto company has a good role on climate change (well, except Musk) or profiteering from government subsidies, or labor relations (in the USA consider the move to low-wage anti-union jurisdictions by all of them). I'm not a fan of Musk's social or political views, much less his huckstering. But no way differentiate Musk from leadership of other auto companies on any vector other than the level of attention to Musk's flaws, other than, perhaps he's invited media attention by being so public about it.
RickJWagner 6y ago
Ah, a lightly-disguised ad hominem political article. Just in case there are any sincere readers out there who regret buying a dual-motor performance Tesla, please respond to this note. I'll help you find a way to rid yourself of it.

12 points by smalera 6y ago

the article does a decent job considering the higher order effects of a purchasing decision. I find it kind of funny that, after talking about trains, ebikes, etc., the "responsible" choice ended up being a $40k car, in large part because $80k was just too expensive.

fsflover 6y ago

To me, there is also a problem of non-free software in their cars, which more and more look like the walled garden of Apple. Why do they have to close it?

maeln 6y ago

I remember a conversation with one of my friend where I expressed my dislike for E. Musk and used it as a reason as to why I would never buy a Tesla ( if I could afford it, one can dream :) ). His answer was simply "Do you think the CEO of Ford, Renault, etc. is more likeable?" and I think it is a really good point. We see them less in the media and they probably don't go on strange Twitter rant, but CEO of other car manufacturer are probably not any better then E. Musk when it comes to worker right and all. Now, I still consider Tesla to be a luxury car, and not a green car. And if you want to be green, buying a second-hand car is often gonna be better than a brand new one, even if electric.

Apreche 6y ago

There is no moral consumption under capitalism. That being said, a car of any kind, even an electric one, ranks very highly on the list of least ethical purchases. Live somewhere with public transportation and/or ride a bicycle to save your soul.

RhysU 6y ago
Quite a strong statement that. You would argue that buying medicine for a child is immoral under capitalism? Assisting an elderly family member with their rent? Purchasing canned goods for a food bank? Military spending to assist an invaded country? Research expenditures to improve fuel efficiency? Higher education? Obviously, I am bewildered by the claim. Where might I read more on this perspective?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ykevinator 6y ago

This is so self elevating it makes me sick. Buy the car or don't but don't use it as an excuse to show how great you are

new_realist 6y ago

Teslas don't benefit the environment. For every Tesla sold, they are given pollution credits which they sell to other auto manufacturers to let them pollute more. So, there's no climate advantage to buying Tesla vs. some other car. And given their profligate spending (which generates a lot of carbon) and inefficiencies of manufacturing (headcount/car ratio much higher than the industry average) there may even be a climate disadvantage.

omarshal 6y ago
But these companies don't want to pay Tesla for the credits, so if anything good came from it, is that Tesla pushed the rest of the companies to accelerate EV production. For instance, I don't think VW would come with the ID family in 2020 if Tesla didn't exist. Eventually, with such a competitive market it would happen, but I think Tesla accelerated the thing at least a couple of years in advance.
s_gourichon 6y ago
If manufacturing+using a Tesla (on average on all lifespan) is indeed greener, and price per pollution credit is well balanced, then the credit machinery economically nudges the equilibrium towards greener overall. That's the theory behind freely exchangeable pollution credit.

bryanlarsen 6y ago

If you believe that it's morally dubious to accept and repay a government loan, then I don't think you can buy a car from anybody.

xiwenc 6y ago

I was secretly hoping the author would end up with an average second hand car of let’s say 10k and donate 70k to non profit orgs that would let’s say plant more trees.

Booktrope 6y ago

All this stuff about Elon Musk. Well, I hope you aren't gonna decide to buy a Ford (Henry Ford, who found time to distribute the world's largest antisemitic newspaper between his auto magnate duties), or Volkwagen (pet project of Adolph Hitler, later leader in emissions testing fraud) or any of those other nice companies that have lent their support and wealth to racism or joined that emissions fraud thing. And as to social responsibility, if we're talking about buying a different car, let's not talk about this in a vacuum. I mean we're talking about companites who became wealthy by building all those cars that were "unsafe at any speed" while fighting safety regs, or that have been moving factories to low wage low worker protection locations while fighting labor laws, or have happily produced Humvees and their ilk while fighting environmental laws, all in cahoots with our oil industry as it spreads disinformation about climate change and political gifts to those who listen. As to subsidies from the government for car companies rather than people in need, well, if that bothers you, best not look into any recent factory location decision of a big manufacturing company pretty much anywhere in the world. So if you're taking the approach suggested in this article, you might want to consider it in context, at least before you feel better about buying on of those cars from one of those companies that hasn't gotten quite as much publicity recently about its leadership or way of doing business. Or you can buy an inexpensive used car made by Volkswagen and feel good about that.

pwinnski 6y ago
One might believe there is a difference between Ford, whose founder was icky but long dead, and Tesla, whose founder still currently benefitting from every sale of a product. Volkswagen can be faulted for the testing fraud, IMO, but not its German origin, since again, those people are long dead and therefore not benefitting from sales today.
- Booktrope 6y ago
  True, these founders are dead. But Ford's family still owns a huge share of the company and has never renounced the patriarch. It's not just testing fraud with Volkwagen, that's just a symptom. Check out, for example, recent reports of their use of forced Uighur labor, for example. These were only stark examples, but you're not really saying, management of any major auto company has a good role on climate change (well, except Musk) or profiteering from government subsidies, or labor relations (in the USA consider the move to low-wage anti-union jurisdictions by all of them). I'm not a fan of Musk's social or political views, much less his huckstering. But no way differentiate Musk from leadership of other auto companies on any vector other than the level of attention to Musk's flaws, other than, perhaps he's invited media attention by being so public about it.

RickJWagner 6y ago

Ah, a lightly-disguised ad hominem political article. Just in case there are any sincere readers out there who regret buying a dual-motor performance Tesla, please respond to this note. I'll help you find a way to rid yourself of it.