6 ms·

For what it's worth, nothing in the article discusses her personal experiences or generalizes from them.

hugh3 16y ago
You're right -- she skips the discussion of her personal experiences and jumps straight into the generalizations. "Our higher education system largely fails to educate... It’s nothing less than a deep institutional, cultural, societal and indeed humanitarian crisis." Really? I could have sworn that I learned a bunch of stuff about physics and pure mathematics in my four years of intensively studying physics and pure mathematics, but maybe I'm just crazy.
- cj 16y ago
  The vast majority of graduates do not leave college having intensively studied anything as rigorous as physics or mathematics. Most leave college with a degree that they didn't work very hard to earn. College offers the opportunity to do what you did and work your ass off, but most have no such desire.
  - enjo 16y ago
    Again, a massive generalization that you quite frankly don't have a bit of data to support.
    - cj 16y ago
      I'm a college student. I make my claims based on experience. Do you disagree with my claim? It may be a generalization, but by no means an overgeneralization.
      - kenjackson 16y ago
        Most people I know who get a degree actually study a fair bit and learn a fair bit. For most people I know college is the first time they've ever really been pushed. Not to say this is the case for everyone, but I just want to point out that opinions can vary.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - entangld 16y ago
        Your generalization applies to just about everyone. Most people don't have higher educations at all. And only a percentage of those get through the classes that weed weaker students out. But are those classes actually teaching or just cutting grades? Hacker News users aren't exactly a representative sample of the population anyway (generally educated, probably middle class or higher and if not middle class, we probably have above average drive ambition). Secondly, just because someone passes classes doesn't mean they're educated. I had friends who pumped and dumped for tests and couldn't remember any of it the next semester. Other people learn outside of school and we have no way to measure or give credit for that. Clayton Christensen talks about the disruption of Harvard Business school in his book -> http://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Solution-Creating-Sustaining-Successful/dp/1578518520 http://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Solution-Creating-Sustainin... You can't compare everyone to an 'elite' anyway. It's statistically unfeasible. We need critical thinkers who have a thirst for knowledge. Some people don't have the latter. Especially people who think they are already educated. Those are things we need in our society and a degree doesn't guarantee that people have them. Although we wish it did.
    - Vivtek 16y ago
      What? Seriously? One of the "great successes" of Indiana education lately (scare quotes to denote its Potemkin aspect) is the satellite campus in the city in which I live of a certain state university, which has recently been augmented with a new satellite campus of, um, another certain land-grant university. (Hi, Mr. Google, nothing to see here.) Party of the first part itself has never been much to write home about (and that alone would back up the grandparent), but party of the second part in particular is shamelessly exploiting the lack of a viable local economy by selling degrees with the promise of "careers". The people in that program are utterly disinterested in learning anything at all that someone here at HNN would consider an "education" (after all, they just want jobs; they don't care how, and if someone will sell them a job, they're happy to pony up the money, but they don't see why they should go through the rigamarole of learning math and stuff) - and they will be graduating with a degree in engineering from said Indiana land-grant university which is rather well known for its engineering program. (That is, the commodity they're selling is - for now - worth it.) I don't want to get too much more specific or even identify my source of information, but let me assure you that - even though I don't consider this universal in American education - I do consider it probably rather typical, because if Indiana is doing something, I know damn well we didn't originate it. The people going through this program know nothing about math or engineering. Nothing. You probably think that's hyperbole. Let me assure you that it is not hyperbole; they know so little math that you would honestly not be able to accept that a member of H. sapiens is capable of knowing so little math. They're simply paying for the piece of paper that they're told will get them a job, and nothing more. If too many in a class fail, ways are found to make sure that those students still get their credits. The paramount goal is to sell degrees, no matter what, and to present the facade of dynamic growth. I want to stress at this juncture that this is not the DeVrie Institute or some other commercial educational organization - these are well-known, fairly well-respected, state universities. They're not Harvard, but the engineering school in particular is a good one, especially in aerospace. The degrees they are selling are good names. But they're selling them, cash on the barrelhead. I remember perfectly well when a new president was hired at Party of the First Part University with the motto of running the school like a business, and this is the result. Now, I'll grant you none of this is data, it's anecdotal, from an anonymous source, and hopefully not too easy to Google, and I've omitted worse allegations that I believe to be true - I live here, after all, and know these people, and I can't prove any of it. But it's all too real. If you want to deny it, fine; that's certainly your right. But OP is far more on target than you seem to be comfortable with.
    - gammarator 16y ago
      Well, here's a big discussion in the NYT worrying about the value of business degrees specifically: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/04/17/why-look-down-on-a-business-degree http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/04/17/why-look-dow...
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - localhost3000 16y ago
    And those graduates are the ones who didn't get their money's worth, can't find decent work, and are largely pissed off at their plight. Now, whose fault is that? I say it's the kid just as much (or more) as it is the institution. There are plenty of people who put it the effort and are entirely satisfied with their education.
  - nice1 16y ago
    Furthermore, as the article itself notes, grade inflation and acceptance of cheating make the value of even the science degrees somewhat dubious. The general atmosphere of political correctness (often motivated by extreme leftist ideology) make this problem very acute.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - rhizome 16y ago
    If all I had to do in college was not work very hard, I probably wouldn't have flunked out.
- ddkrone 16y ago
  What is it about math and physics majors that makes them think they somehow learn things more 'real' or relevant to the real world? Funny thing is this kind of attitude is way too common among the science majors. For some reason they think their degree is more real than the next guy's. Must have something to do with lack of emphasis on the humanitarian subjects. Before people jump the gun I should mention I have a graduate degree in mathematics and I paid for it what it was worth: 0 dollars.

hugh3 16y ago

You're right -- she skips the discussion of her personal experiences and jumps straight into the generalizations. "Our higher education system largely fails to educate... It’s nothing less than a deep institutional, cultural, societal and indeed humanitarian crisis." Really? I could have sworn that I learned a bunch of stuff about physics and pure mathematics in my four years of intensively studying physics and pure mathematics, but maybe I'm just crazy.

cj 16y ago
The vast majority of graduates do not leave college having intensively studied anything as rigorous as physics or mathematics. Most leave college with a degree that they didn't work very hard to earn. College offers the opportunity to do what you did and work your ass off, but most have no such desire.
- enjo 16y ago
  Again, a massive generalization that you quite frankly don't have a bit of data to support.
  - cj 16y ago
    I'm a college student. I make my claims based on experience. Do you disagree with my claim? It may be a generalization, but by no means an overgeneralization.
    - kenjackson 16y ago
      Most people I know who get a degree actually study a fair bit and learn a fair bit. For most people I know college is the first time they've ever really been pushed. Not to say this is the case for everyone, but I just want to point out that opinions can vary.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - entangld 16y ago
      Your generalization applies to just about everyone. Most people don't have higher educations at all. And only a percentage of those get through the classes that weed weaker students out. But are those classes actually teaching or just cutting grades? Hacker News users aren't exactly a representative sample of the population anyway (generally educated, probably middle class or higher and if not middle class, we probably have above average drive ambition). Secondly, just because someone passes classes doesn't mean they're educated. I had friends who pumped and dumped for tests and couldn't remember any of it the next semester. Other people learn outside of school and we have no way to measure or give credit for that. Clayton Christensen talks about the disruption of Harvard Business school in his book -> http://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Solution-Creating-Sustaining-Successful/dp/1578518520 http://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Solution-Creating-Sustainin... You can't compare everyone to an 'elite' anyway. It's statistically unfeasible. We need critical thinkers who have a thirst for knowledge. Some people don't have the latter. Especially people who think they are already educated. Those are things we need in our society and a degree doesn't guarantee that people have them. Although we wish it did.
  - Vivtek 16y ago
    What? Seriously? One of the "great successes" of Indiana education lately (scare quotes to denote its Potemkin aspect) is the satellite campus in the city in which I live of a certain state university, which has recently been augmented with a new satellite campus of, um, another certain land-grant university. (Hi, Mr. Google, nothing to see here.) Party of the first part itself has never been much to write home about (and that alone would back up the grandparent), but party of the second part in particular is shamelessly exploiting the lack of a viable local economy by selling degrees with the promise of "careers". The people in that program are utterly disinterested in learning anything at all that someone here at HNN would consider an "education" (after all, they just want jobs; they don't care how, and if someone will sell them a job, they're happy to pony up the money, but they don't see why they should go through the rigamarole of learning math and stuff) - and they will be graduating with a degree in engineering from said Indiana land-grant university which is rather well known for its engineering program. (That is, the commodity they're selling is - for now - worth it.) I don't want to get too much more specific or even identify my source of information, but let me assure you that - even though I don't consider this universal in American education - I do consider it probably rather typical, because if Indiana is doing something, I know damn well we didn't originate it. The people going through this program know nothing about math or engineering. Nothing. You probably think that's hyperbole. Let me assure you that it is not hyperbole; they know so little math that you would honestly not be able to accept that a member of H. sapiens is capable of knowing so little math. They're simply paying for the piece of paper that they're told will get them a job, and nothing more. If too many in a class fail, ways are found to make sure that those students still get their credits. The paramount goal is to sell degrees, no matter what, and to present the facade of dynamic growth. I want to stress at this juncture that this is not the DeVrie Institute or some other commercial educational organization - these are well-known, fairly well-respected, state universities. They're not Harvard, but the engineering school in particular is a good one, especially in aerospace. The degrees they are selling are good names. But they're selling them, cash on the barrelhead. I remember perfectly well when a new president was hired at Party of the First Part University with the motto of running the school like a business, and this is the result. Now, I'll grant you none of this is data, it's anecdotal, from an anonymous source, and hopefully not too easy to Google, and I've omitted worse allegations that I believe to be true - I live here, after all, and know these people, and I can't prove any of it. But it's all too real. If you want to deny it, fine; that's certainly your right. But OP is far more on target than you seem to be comfortable with.
  - gammarator 16y ago
    Well, here's a big discussion in the NYT worrying about the value of business degrees specifically: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/04/17/why-look-down-on-a-business-degree http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/04/17/why-look-dow...
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- localhost3000 16y ago
  And those graduates are the ones who didn't get their money's worth, can't find decent work, and are largely pissed off at their plight. Now, whose fault is that? I say it's the kid just as much (or more) as it is the institution. There are plenty of people who put it the effort and are entirely satisfied with their education.
- nice1 16y ago
  Furthermore, as the article itself notes, grade inflation and acceptance of cheating make the value of even the science degrees somewhat dubious. The general atmosphere of political correctness (often motivated by extreme leftist ideology) make this problem very acute.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- rhizome 16y ago
  If all I had to do in college was not work very hard, I probably wouldn't have flunked out.
ddkrone 16y ago
What is it about math and physics majors that makes them think they somehow learn things more 'real' or relevant to the real world? Funny thing is this kind of attitude is way too common among the science majors. For some reason they think their degree is more real than the next guy's. Must have something to do with lack of emphasis on the humanitarian subjects. Before people jump the gun I should mention I have a graduate degree in mathematics and I paid for it what it was worth: 0 dollars.