3 ms·

This whole need to create a narrative about all western history evil and then just ignoring history as a whole and that humans and human empires behave exactly

This whole need to create a narrative about all western history evil and then just ignoring history as a whole and that humans and human empires behave exactly the same no matter origin or creed is dishonest at best and malicious at worst.

Swenrekcah 6y ago
I agree, it's a bit strange to pretend only colonial europeans were cruel. To the extent that cruelty is pointed out in order to make things better going forward, I'm all for that. But basically like you said, every empire throughout history was built on ruthlesness and cruelty, else it would not be an empire but a village. Our technology and knowledge today allows for better empires though, so we should demand better behaviour today.
- christkv 6y ago
  In an ideal world we would have not empires but it’s not realistic due to human nature. Right now I would say there are two main empires. US and China and a set of second rate powers like the EU, India and Japan.
  - kingkawn 6y ago
    The idea that any of us who are a product of this era of empire and its transparently hollow assumptions have a clue about “human nature” seems laughable
Frost1x 6y ago
I think the need arises because it's often glossed over in public education--more of a corrective reaction. Western history, especially the US in US public education, often glosses over past atrocities committed. Maybe western civilizations aren't inherently more evil than others in some cases, but we also aren't inherently much less evil or were driven under some pure altruism as some may think.
- mc32 6y ago
  But most education systems everywhere gloss over these kinds of things. Japan is a well known example, but do think Turkey indulges on the atrocities of the Ottoman Empire? Or the Chinese and their “internal” expansionism —now to be fair to the Chinese they often glorify things like the warring period and such, but it’s dressed differently.
  - ivanbakel 6y ago
    What is the point of this whataboutism? Do you think that the revisionist policies of other countries somehow justify any ignorance on the part of people in the West with regard to their own history? There is no justification to the idea that a critical look at Western history is itself a criticism of Western countries as opposed to all others. The nations of the world are not all engaged in some zero-sum game of historical respect. Point-scoring, however, has a real and detrimental impact on discussions of history. It should only be used by people who hope to shut down any analysis of the realities of the past: and if you want to do that here, you should go elsewhere.
  - Frost1x 6y ago
    I believe everyone should have similar education systems. The more we understand about others, our own history, and ourselves, the better we can make reasonable decisions in the future. If another country chooses to paint western civilization or the US negatively while ignoring their own baggage, then that’s their own ignorance. The same can be said about our civilizations painting others negatively awhile igoring our own past and engaging in hypocrisy. I believe education is the best path to progress forward and peaceful diplomacy, for everyone. Angry populations fed lies, foaming at the mouth for blood just doesn't seem like a good path forward and never has been.
- christkv 6y ago
  We are also not born with original sin and should not feel guilt for the historic actions of empire and kingdoms where the population had no democratic mandate. History is history good and bad. The obsession about framing history as some sort of unpaid debt towards people dead long ago is ridiculous. If you want to go down that route I expect the Arabs to line up and apologize for the extinguishing the multicultural societies in the Middle East and North Africa, or the mongols for the perpetuated mass murder of Asians, Russians and Europeans . Ok people did bad things 400 years ago. So what? Don’t repeat history that’s is the only long term lesson to be learned.
disown 6y ago
> This whole need to create a narrative about all western history evil You are building a strawman here. Nobody is saying all western history is bad ( as if there is such a thing really - there isn't ), but the west has been the source of most evil in the past few hundred years. > human empires behave exactly the same no matter origin or creed is dishonest at best and malicious at worst. No they have not. The greeks, japanese, romans, mongols, etc never had racial extermination campaigns like the british empire, the us empire, nazi germany, etc. That is a fairly new and uniquely western "ideal". That entire races had to be exterminated because they were native, aborigine, jewish, etc is something new. Sure cities were destroyed, people were persecuted, enslaved, etc in the past but you won't find many empires in the past that committed the atrocities that britain, nazis and we have. And the most evil singular acts in human history is easily hiroshima and nagasaki. And who committed those evil acts? You can argue that others would have been just as evil as the west if they had the power and I'd probably agree with that. But that isn't history, it's conjecture. And even if it was true, then it just shows we are no better than everyone else. Which runs counter to the dominant narrative that the west is "all good, perfect, civilized, etc". The narrative that the west is evil is needed because it's fundamentally true and we need to counter the dominant false narrative that the west is all good. How many millions have we butchered in iraq, vietnam, syria, central/south america, africa, etc all in the name of "western good"? Your sentiments are correct but you are misguided in your anger. You shouldn't be mad at the "west is evil" narrative. You should really be angry at the dominant "west is good" narrative.

Swenrekcah 6y ago

I agree, it's a bit strange to pretend only colonial europeans were cruel. To the extent that cruelty is pointed out in order to make things better going forward, I'm all for that. But basically like you said, every empire throughout history was built on ruthlesness and cruelty, else it would not be an empire but a village. Our technology and knowledge today allows for better empires though, so we should demand better behaviour today.

christkv 6y ago
In an ideal world we would have not empires but it’s not realistic due to human nature. Right now I would say there are two main empires. US and China and a set of second rate powers like the EU, India and Japan.
- kingkawn 6y ago
  The idea that any of us who are a product of this era of empire and its transparently hollow assumptions have a clue about “human nature” seems laughable

Frost1x 6y ago

I think the need arises because it's often glossed over in public education--more of a corrective reaction. Western history, especially the US in US public education, often glosses over past atrocities committed. Maybe western civilizations aren't inherently more evil than others in some cases, but we also aren't inherently much less evil or were driven under some pure altruism as some may think.

mc32 6y ago
But most education systems everywhere gloss over these kinds of things. Japan is a well known example, but do think Turkey indulges on the atrocities of the Ottoman Empire? Or the Chinese and their “internal” expansionism —now to be fair to the Chinese they often glorify things like the warring period and such, but it’s dressed differently.
- ivanbakel 6y ago
  What is the point of this whataboutism? Do you think that the revisionist policies of other countries somehow justify any ignorance on the part of people in the West with regard to their own history? There is no justification to the idea that a critical look at Western history is itself a criticism of Western countries as opposed to all others. The nations of the world are not all engaged in some zero-sum game of historical respect. Point-scoring, however, has a real and detrimental impact on discussions of history. It should only be used by people who hope to shut down any analysis of the realities of the past: and if you want to do that here, you should go elsewhere.
- Frost1x 6y ago
  I believe everyone should have similar education systems. The more we understand about others, our own history, and ourselves, the better we can make reasonable decisions in the future. If another country chooses to paint western civilization or the US negatively while ignoring their own baggage, then that’s their own ignorance. The same can be said about our civilizations painting others negatively awhile igoring our own past and engaging in hypocrisy. I believe education is the best path to progress forward and peaceful diplomacy, for everyone. Angry populations fed lies, foaming at the mouth for blood just doesn't seem like a good path forward and never has been.
christkv 6y ago
We are also not born with original sin and should not feel guilt for the historic actions of empire and kingdoms where the population had no democratic mandate. History is history good and bad. The obsession about framing history as some sort of unpaid debt towards people dead long ago is ridiculous. If you want to go down that route I expect the Arabs to line up and apologize for the extinguishing the multicultural societies in the Middle East and North Africa, or the mongols for the perpetuated mass murder of Asians, Russians and Europeans . Ok people did bad things 400 years ago. So what? Don’t repeat history that’s is the only long term lesson to be learned.

disown 6y ago

> This whole need to create a narrative about all western history evil You are building a strawman here. Nobody is saying all western history is bad ( as if there is such a thing really - there isn't ), but the west has been the source of most evil in the past few hundred years. > human empires behave exactly the same no matter origin or creed is dishonest at best and malicious at worst. No they have not. The greeks, japanese, romans, mongols, etc never had racial extermination campaigns like the british empire, the us empire, nazi germany, etc. That is a fairly new and uniquely western "ideal". That entire races had to be exterminated because they were native, aborigine, jewish, etc is something new. Sure cities were destroyed, people were persecuted, enslaved, etc in the past but you won't find many empires in the past that committed the atrocities that britain, nazis and we have. And the most evil singular acts in human history is easily hiroshima and nagasaki. And who committed those evil acts? You can argue that others would have been just as evil as the west if they had the power and I'd probably agree with that. But that isn't history, it's conjecture. And even if it was true, then it just shows we are no better than everyone else. Which runs counter to the dominant narrative that the west is "all good, perfect, civilized, etc". The narrative that the west is evil is needed because it's fundamentally true and we need to counter the dominant false narrative that the west is all good. How many millions have we butchered in iraq, vietnam, syria, central/south america, africa, etc all in the name of "western good"? Your sentiments are correct but you are misguided in your anger. You shouldn't be mad at the "west is evil" narrative. You should really be angry at the dominant "west is good" narrative.