7 ms·

For those saying this is only possible with a good passport and a full bank account: I see people doing similar with crappy passports and nearly no money. Sure,

For those saying this is only possible with a good passport and a full bank account: I see people doing similar with crappy passports and nearly no money. Sure, they don't have a computer program telling them what to do, but I've heard standard dice are more random than PRNGs anyway. As far as expenses go, most people do Couchsurfing or something similar. With housing taken care of, you can feed yourself on a couple bucks a day, and hitchhiking is free. Sure, with a crappy passport you can't go absolutely everywhere, but with a South American or African passport you can travel your entire home continent visa free, with a Russian passport you can travel the CIS countries, etc. If anyone here (rich or poor, good passport or bad) would like to try their hand at this kind of random, see-where-life-takes-you kind of living, feel free to come stay at my boat home (currently sailing from the Netherlands to France.) I take tons of Couchsurfers of all kinds, many of which live the low budget version of this guy's life :) My email's in my profile.

sebastiangraef 6y ago
For sure. I've been living a nomadic life for three years now, not randomized because I prefer picking my locations myself but I could do that. Good passport, so this problem doesn't apply to me. But I've also met plenty enough Indian or Filipino nomads in Asia. If you got the remote income stream then you can solve the visa problems.
- dorchadas 6y ago
  I'd love to do this for a while, but getting that remote income stream is the issue for me, especially with student loans to pay off. Any advice?
  - sebastiangraef 6y ago
    I basically quit my job without income and got freelance clients after traveling for a while. That might be not everyone's cup of tea so probably better to get that sorted before leaving. There are quite a lot of fully remote jobs now but tons of competition and mostly "US only". Freelancing is probably the fastest way to get remote income. Best is to have some kind of retainer deal for x/month in my opinion, instead of always hunting new projects. SaaS or any kind of online business is more of a long term play.
fock 6y ago
actually, for tourist visa, you at least need a somewhat filled bankaccount. the south american or russian nomad might not be a multi-millionaire in the US, but he'll be quite rich in his/her homecountry. And no, average "3rd world remote work" lined up likely won't cut it, because I think most countries want you to be able to support yourself for the duration of the visa (and I think "I'm a nomad, the internet pays me, here's my Indian LLC" isn't what officials want to hear). Then, even just the fees for one VISA are likely a months income for most people from countries with a bad passport... Given that: with careful planning and a good passport you can certainly do things like this on a budget, given that most countries of this world only cost you a tiny fraction of living in population centers of Europe or North American coasts.
- owenversteeg 6y ago
  Did you mean to reply to me, or someone else? I didn't even mention tourist visas - just the vast areas that many people with crappy passports can travel with no visas involved whatsoever. I also didn't mention remote work at all. Now, your comment is also completely wrong. "Visa fees are likely a month's income" is ridiculous, unless you're going to cherry pick the most extreme examples. Russian average salary is around 50k rub/mo, Schengen visa fees around 3k rub for Russians. You wanna pick an expensive country, like the US? OK, a 3 year multi entry visa costs 12k rub. Saying you need a "filled bankaccount" and to be "quite rich" in your home country is also ridiculous, the guideline on Schengen visas to France is min. 32 euros a day, so you can stay for around 20 days by having about one month's average Russian salary in your bank account. Finally, self employed people that meet the requirements do just fine in getting Schengen visas. I've had many stay with me and they all said it wasn't too tough. Unfortunately many people just don't prepare for the application properly, don't do their research, and are denied. While I agree that the process is unnecessarily opaque and confusing (and does deny people randomly at times), most people who prepare properly and fill out the application correctly will get their visa.
  - fock 6y ago
    > just the vast areas that many people with crappy passports can travel with no visas involved whatsoever. Yeah, they can, but somehow they don't which might be related that most of these vast areas are empty (especially Russia) or lack any infrastructure making the digital nomad-lifestyle so "nice" (or even basic personal security for large parts of Africa). Also I'm not sure, how they intend to travel to e.g. Europe: a remote-work "I'm a digital nomad"-setup won't cut it, so they have to have cash for their stay (and a plan, where to stay?!). > "Visa fees are likely a month's income" is ridiculous, unless you're going to cherry pick the most extreme examples. Russian average salary is around 50k rub/mo, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income#/media/File:Countries_by_gross_median_per-capita_income_in_Int$_(PPP).png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income#/media/File:Coun... now guess who's cherry-picking. > so you can stay for around 20 days by having about one month's average Russian salary in your bank account. I don't know how many people in the US/... have about a month of the average US/... salary in their bank account. My guess: not so many and the ones (like the sw-eng. HN-crowd) can be considered "quite rich" by all means. Also I thought that digital nomadism/this sort of traveling entailed doing it more than half a month at a time. While this is certainly possible, having a filled bankaccount (with some multiples of your month gross income) seems to be a general requirement. I doubt you get a visa for France having "no job" and 600€s. Paying a human trafficker is easily thrice this amount and seems to be in high-demand for a lot of the "bad passport"-kind of countries... So no, this is not something anybody can do, but just a rich kid's hobby.
foobiekr 6y ago
Almost two decades ago, while I was in a bit of a funk about the not-very-interesting, heavily corporatized thing the software industry has become [2] I read the book "Vagabounding" [1]. It talks about doing exactly what you're describing and it sounds great, but then, if you're like me, you start worrying about your long term, and, for example, eventual medical costs and so on. Like many things, it sounds great until you consider downside risk. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/100247.Vagabonding https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/100247.Vagabonding [2] Essentially, I was very, very familiar with the 1970s and especially the 1980s Valley since parts of my extended family were directly involved, and I'd been looking forward to it and all of the excitement around it. The 2000s+ experience of the valley is far, far from that era for people who love technology, building things, excitement, etc.
ReactiveJelly 6y ago
> I've heard standard dice are more random than PRNGs anyway. How's that?
- owenversteeg 6y ago
  Well, the P is what does you in, really :) PRNGs use a few bytes of entropy to make a ton of bytes of /dev/urandom. With dice, the entropy is directly in your hands. Also, apparently dice are quite good sources of entropy, enough that people use them for actual crypto from time to time. I imagine most people would just be concerned with the distribution of 1-6 but I suppose if you're using them for actual crypto you'd care about other things (do you start to throw in a specific way after a while? Maybe getting into a sort of rhythm that affects the output?)
forgotmypw17 6y ago
Agree here. I live this lifestyle day-to-day, and I'm doing it as a fregan (largely no currency). I basically have some goals like my software project and gravitate towards accomplishing them, but otherwise leave my schedule up to "chance". I sleep as much as I want to, whenever I want to. I eat only food which arrives to me and meets my standards. I travel largely on "tailwinds". After less than 5 years of this practice, I have become much more deeply spiritual and a believer in things like synchronicity, precognition, quantum reality, alternative-dimension beings, and conscious navigation of such. I believe our universe "wants" to create as much "good feelings" and the minimum necessary amount of "bad feelings", and everything you do to help this endeavor will guide you into synchronous luck and success. As a funny side effect, because animals also feel good and bad feelings, even little things like feeding hungry animals or doing small things reducing industrial impact on wildlife can "pump your karma", which will in turn fuel your other pursuits, which are also hopefully towards good means. This has also given me a "large-scale natural process" view of history and social currents, which has given me a feeling of peace, contentment, and acceptance of macro things like politics an war. I now think that trying to influence mainstream politics is akin to one blood cell trying to bend a human's decision matrix to suit itself.

sebastiangraef 6y ago

For sure. I've been living a nomadic life for three years now, not randomized because I prefer picking my locations myself but I could do that. Good passport, so this problem doesn't apply to me. But I've also met plenty enough Indian or Filipino nomads in Asia. If you got the remote income stream then you can solve the visa problems.

dorchadas 6y ago
I'd love to do this for a while, but getting that remote income stream is the issue for me, especially with student loans to pay off. Any advice?
- sebastiangraef 6y ago
  I basically quit my job without income and got freelance clients after traveling for a while. That might be not everyone's cup of tea so probably better to get that sorted before leaving. There are quite a lot of fully remote jobs now but tons of competition and mostly "US only". Freelancing is probably the fastest way to get remote income. Best is to have some kind of retainer deal for x/month in my opinion, instead of always hunting new projects. SaaS or any kind of online business is more of a long term play.

fock 6y ago

actually, for tourist visa, you at least need a somewhat filled bankaccount. the south american or russian nomad might not be a multi-millionaire in the US, but he'll be quite rich in his/her homecountry. And no, average "3rd world remote work" lined up likely won't cut it, because I think most countries want you to be able to support yourself for the duration of the visa (and I think "I'm a nomad, the internet pays me, here's my Indian LLC" isn't what officials want to hear). Then, even just the fees for one VISA are likely a months income for most people from countries with a bad passport... Given that: with careful planning and a good passport you can certainly do things like this on a budget, given that most countries of this world only cost you a tiny fraction of living in population centers of Europe or North American coasts.

owenversteeg 6y ago
Did you mean to reply to me, or someone else? I didn't even mention tourist visas - just the vast areas that many people with crappy passports can travel with no visas involved whatsoever. I also didn't mention remote work at all. Now, your comment is also completely wrong. "Visa fees are likely a month's income" is ridiculous, unless you're going to cherry pick the most extreme examples. Russian average salary is around 50k rub/mo, Schengen visa fees around 3k rub for Russians. You wanna pick an expensive country, like the US? OK, a 3 year multi entry visa costs 12k rub. Saying you need a "filled bankaccount" and to be "quite rich" in your home country is also ridiculous, the guideline on Schengen visas to France is min. 32 euros a day, so you can stay for around 20 days by having about one month's average Russian salary in your bank account. Finally, self employed people that meet the requirements do just fine in getting Schengen visas. I've had many stay with me and they all said it wasn't too tough. Unfortunately many people just don't prepare for the application properly, don't do their research, and are denied. While I agree that the process is unnecessarily opaque and confusing (and does deny people randomly at times), most people who prepare properly and fill out the application correctly will get their visa.
- fock 6y ago
  > just the vast areas that many people with crappy passports can travel with no visas involved whatsoever. Yeah, they can, but somehow they don't which might be related that most of these vast areas are empty (especially Russia) or lack any infrastructure making the digital nomad-lifestyle so "nice" (or even basic personal security for large parts of Africa). Also I'm not sure, how they intend to travel to e.g. Europe: a remote-work "I'm a digital nomad"-setup won't cut it, so they have to have cash for their stay (and a plan, where to stay?!). > "Visa fees are likely a month's income" is ridiculous, unless you're going to cherry pick the most extreme examples. Russian average salary is around 50k rub/mo, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income#/media/File:Countries_by_gross_median_per-capita_income_in_Int$_(PPP).png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income#/media/File:Coun... now guess who's cherry-picking. > so you can stay for around 20 days by having about one month's average Russian salary in your bank account. I don't know how many people in the US/... have about a month of the average US/... salary in their bank account. My guess: not so many and the ones (like the sw-eng. HN-crowd) can be considered "quite rich" by all means. Also I thought that digital nomadism/this sort of traveling entailed doing it more than half a month at a time. While this is certainly possible, having a filled bankaccount (with some multiples of your month gross income) seems to be a general requirement. I doubt you get a visa for France having "no job" and 600€s. Paying a human trafficker is easily thrice this amount and seems to be in high-demand for a lot of the "bad passport"-kind of countries... So no, this is not something anybody can do, but just a rich kid's hobby.

foobiekr 6y ago

Almost two decades ago, while I was in a bit of a funk about the not-very-interesting, heavily corporatized thing the software industry has become [2] I read the book "Vagabounding" [1]. It talks about doing exactly what you're describing and it sounds great, but then, if you're like me, you start worrying about your long term, and, for example, eventual medical costs and so on. Like many things, it sounds great until you consider downside risk. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/100247.Vagabonding https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/100247.Vagabonding [2] Essentially, I was very, very familiar with the 1970s and especially the 1980s Valley since parts of my extended family were directly involved, and I'd been looking forward to it and all of the excitement around it. The 2000s+ experience of the valley is far, far from that era for people who love technology, building things, excitement, etc.

ReactiveJelly 6y ago

> I've heard standard dice are more random than PRNGs anyway. How's that?

owenversteeg 6y ago
Well, the P is what does you in, really :) PRNGs use a few bytes of entropy to make a ton of bytes of /dev/urandom. With dice, the entropy is directly in your hands. Also, apparently dice are quite good sources of entropy, enough that people use them for actual crypto from time to time. I imagine most people would just be concerned with the distribution of 1-6 but I suppose if you're using them for actual crypto you'd care about other things (do you start to throw in a specific way after a while? Maybe getting into a sort of rhythm that affects the output?)

forgotmypw17 6y ago

Agree here. I live this lifestyle day-to-day, and I'm doing it as a fregan (largely no currency). I basically have some goals like my software project and gravitate towards accomplishing them, but otherwise leave my schedule up to "chance". I sleep as much as I want to, whenever I want to. I eat only food which arrives to me and meets my standards. I travel largely on "tailwinds". After less than 5 years of this practice, I have become much more deeply spiritual and a believer in things like synchronicity, precognition, quantum reality, alternative-dimension beings, and conscious navigation of such. I believe our universe "wants" to create as much "good feelings" and the minimum necessary amount of "bad feelings", and everything you do to help this endeavor will guide you into synchronous luck and success. As a funny side effect, because animals also feel good and bad feelings, even little things like feeding hungry animals or doing small things reducing industrial impact on wildlife can "pump your karma", which will in turn fuel your other pursuits, which are also hopefully towards good means. This has also given me a "large-scale natural process" view of history and social currents, which has given me a feeling of peace, contentment, and acceptance of macro things like politics an war. I now think that trying to influence mainstream politics is akin to one blood cell trying to bend a human's decision matrix to suit itself.