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> What is the adaptive value of consciousness? When did it evolve and what animals have it? That's a very good question, what is the first thing our evolutiona

> What is the adaptive value of consciousness? When did it evolve and what animals have it? That's a very good question, what is the first thing our evolutionary ancestors ever did, the first thought they ever had that made them different from all other species on the planet and deemed us sentient? Or is the question of consciousness purely a philosophical one? since we can't really define the difference between humans and other species? Or can we?

hans1729 6y ago
> we can't really define the difference between humans and other species? Or can we? Am I missing something? The difference is genetics, manifested via neocortex and thumbs. The question isn't purely philosophical though, as there are entire fields devoted to the topic (cognitive sciences, areas of neuroscience, areas of ai research) Personally, I subscribe to something along the lines of attention schema theory and panpsychism, and the last time I mentioned this on HN, lots of people agreed with this notion: the state of physical imbalance is, in mathematical terms, both sufficient and necessary for consciousness to evolve. (So if there is an imbalance in the realm of electromagnetic forces on some atom, the atoms 'urge' to adapt is what we describe as consciousness, albeit we usually experience the same phenomenon from a vastly more complex and abstract viewpoint (through the attention-mechanisms of our brain))
erikpukinskis 6y ago
My unfounded pet theory is that everything other than us has always had a form of consciousness... that is, a feeling of presence. But that it’s tied to a feeling of connectedness. The insect doesn’t differentiate the presence of itself from the presence of the flower it’s in. It’s all one presence. So what we label “consciousness” is the ability to turn off the connectedness thing. We see ourselves as present and everything else as abstract or distant. I think it’s evolutionarily adaptive, because the insect doesn’t _really_ care if it’s eaten by the flower. It’ll recoil from stress but it won’t fight to continue to exist with the same fervor that a “conscious” creature will. But the irony for many of us is we are on a journey to rekindle that connected feeling. A major goal of life for some is to shed the lie of individualism and keep in mind the truth we knew before we became “conscious”—that we don’t really exist separately from the world around us. We are part of thousands of collective consciousnesses and we can only perceive the world at all through those collective eyes.
- adwn 6y ago
  > I think it’s evolutionarily adaptive, because the insect doesn’t _really_ care if it’s eaten by the flower. It’ll recoil from stress but it won’t fight to continue to exist with the same fervor that a “conscious” creature will. What I conclude from your statement is that you've never watched a nature documentary in your entire life. A fly in a spider web: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0SkOXtq7Nw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0SkOXtq7Nw Seems to me that this fly doesn't really consider itself a part of the spider web, and it very much cares whether it'll be eaten by the spider. It also seems to put up quite the fight. By your theory, that would mean the fly is conscious.
  - erikpukinskis 6y ago
    I think you can, via instincts and learning, recoil. But... have you ever been in fight or flight mode? Subjectively it doesn’t feel like consciousness to me, it’s more a form of blacking out. I’m not suggesting that “human consciousness“ is what allows us to recoil. I’m saying it adds another layer of survivalism on top of normal organism survival. It allows someone to move their family across an ocean, or spend your life building rockets to get off Earth. Like, I don’t think Elon musk would be trying to get to Mars without his human consciousness telling him not just that humans are unique and distinct from the world, but that he personally is unique and distinct from the world. And I guess I’m saying there’s another form of “consciousness” which I guess I have to call “life consciousness” to differentiate it from this “human consciousness” and that the differentiating factor that human consciousness feels separate from other consciousnesses. And that was an evolutionary advantage for us apes and our survival. Definitely not suggesting it’s the only way an organism fights for its survival.
WalterBright 6y ago
Dogs clearly have consciousness. Consciousness is not exclusive to humans. Do mice? Probably. Do insects? I doubt it.
- hans1729 6y ago
  > Do insects? I doubt it. May I ask why? Given there are single-cell-organisms which display complex, intelligent behaviour [1]? Where do you draw the line, and why? Are lobsters with their 18 'neurons' conscious to you? Because they look very conscious to me, although I'm biased (since electromagnetical imbalance is a sufficient explanation for consciousness in my eyes) [1] https://www.sciencealert.com/this-single-celled-animal-can-make-complex-decisions-even-without-a-nervous-system https://www.sciencealert.com/this-single-celled-animal-can-m... ^ there's lots more to this than this single link. For example, I've read about single cell organisms that build shelter for themselves, not to mention 'the blob' (not sure if the ARTE-documentation was translated to english)
  - Teever 6y ago
    From the description in the article you've linked to it seems to me that the described behaviour of this single cell organism could be encapsulated in a page or so of conditional logic with some counters and if-then-else statements. I don't know what consciousness is but I'm confident that it's more than just a page of if-then-else statements.
    - williamdclt 6y ago
      > I don't know what consciousness is but I'm confident that it's more than just a page of if-then-else statements. Are you? I'm not :/ I don't know what consciousness is either (if it is anything), but it doesn't seem unreasonable that it would be a spectrum. That the bottom of the spectrum would be as simple as "a page of if-then-else statements" doesn't seem particularly wild
      - Teever 6y ago
        If consciousness was a trivial as a page or so of if then else statements it would be trivial to just generate all possible combinations of these control structures and then test them all for consciousness properties. The fact that millions of students taking intro CS courses haven't generated consciousness as part of their homework assignment leads me to believe that consciousness is a bit less trivial than a page of if then else statements.

hans1729 6y ago

> we can't really define the difference between humans and other species? Or can we? Am I missing something? The difference is genetics, manifested via neocortex and thumbs. The question isn't purely philosophical though, as there are entire fields devoted to the topic (cognitive sciences, areas of neuroscience, areas of ai research) Personally, I subscribe to something along the lines of attention schema theory and panpsychism, and the last time I mentioned this on HN, lots of people agreed with this notion: the state of physical imbalance is, in mathematical terms, both sufficient and necessary for consciousness to evolve. (So if there is an imbalance in the realm of electromagnetic forces on some atom, the atoms 'urge' to adapt is what we describe as consciousness, albeit we usually experience the same phenomenon from a vastly more complex and abstract viewpoint (through the attention-mechanisms of our brain))

erikpukinskis 6y ago

My unfounded pet theory is that everything other than us has always had a form of consciousness... that is, a feeling of presence. But that it’s tied to a feeling of connectedness. The insect doesn’t differentiate the presence of itself from the presence of the flower it’s in. It’s all one presence. So what we label “consciousness” is the ability to turn off the connectedness thing. We see ourselves as present and everything else as abstract or distant. I think it’s evolutionarily adaptive, because the insect doesn’t _really_ care if it’s eaten by the flower. It’ll recoil from stress but it won’t fight to continue to exist with the same fervor that a “conscious” creature will. But the irony for many of us is we are on a journey to rekindle that connected feeling. A major goal of life for some is to shed the lie of individualism and keep in mind the truth we knew before we became “conscious”—that we don’t really exist separately from the world around us. We are part of thousands of collective consciousnesses and we can only perceive the world at all through those collective eyes.

adwn 6y ago
> I think it’s evolutionarily adaptive, because the insect doesn’t _really_ care if it’s eaten by the flower. It’ll recoil from stress but it won’t fight to continue to exist with the same fervor that a “conscious” creature will. What I conclude from your statement is that you've never watched a nature documentary in your entire life. A fly in a spider web: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0SkOXtq7Nw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0SkOXtq7Nw Seems to me that this fly doesn't really consider itself a part of the spider web, and it very much cares whether it'll be eaten by the spider. It also seems to put up quite the fight. By your theory, that would mean the fly is conscious.
- erikpukinskis 6y ago
  I think you can, via instincts and learning, recoil. But... have you ever been in fight or flight mode? Subjectively it doesn’t feel like consciousness to me, it’s more a form of blacking out. I’m not suggesting that “human consciousness“ is what allows us to recoil. I’m saying it adds another layer of survivalism on top of normal organism survival. It allows someone to move their family across an ocean, or spend your life building rockets to get off Earth. Like, I don’t think Elon musk would be trying to get to Mars without his human consciousness telling him not just that humans are unique and distinct from the world, but that he personally is unique and distinct from the world. And I guess I’m saying there’s another form of “consciousness” which I guess I have to call “life consciousness” to differentiate it from this “human consciousness” and that the differentiating factor that human consciousness feels separate from other consciousnesses. And that was an evolutionary advantage for us apes and our survival. Definitely not suggesting it’s the only way an organism fights for its survival.

WalterBright 6y ago

Dogs clearly have consciousness. Consciousness is not exclusive to humans. Do mice? Probably. Do insects? I doubt it.

hans1729 6y ago
> Do insects? I doubt it. May I ask why? Given there are single-cell-organisms which display complex, intelligent behaviour [1]? Where do you draw the line, and why? Are lobsters with their 18 'neurons' conscious to you? Because they look very conscious to me, although I'm biased (since electromagnetical imbalance is a sufficient explanation for consciousness in my eyes) [1] https://www.sciencealert.com/this-single-celled-animal-can-make-complex-decisions-even-without-a-nervous-system https://www.sciencealert.com/this-single-celled-animal-can-m... ^ there's lots more to this than this single link. For example, I've read about single cell organisms that build shelter for themselves, not to mention 'the blob' (not sure if the ARTE-documentation was translated to english)
- Teever 6y ago
  From the description in the article you've linked to it seems to me that the described behaviour of this single cell organism could be encapsulated in a page or so of conditional logic with some counters and if-then-else statements. I don't know what consciousness is but I'm confident that it's more than just a page of if-then-else statements.
  - williamdclt 6y ago
    > I don't know what consciousness is but I'm confident that it's more than just a page of if-then-else statements. Are you? I'm not :/ I don't know what consciousness is either (if it is anything), but it doesn't seem unreasonable that it would be a spectrum. That the bottom of the spectrum would be as simple as "a page of if-then-else statements" doesn't seem particularly wild
    - Teever 6y ago
      If consciousness was a trivial as a page or so of if then else statements it would be trivial to just generate all possible combinations of these control structures and then test them all for consciousness properties. The fact that millions of students taking intro CS courses haven't generated consciousness as part of their homework assignment leads me to believe that consciousness is a bit less trivial than a page of if then else statements.