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There is no way to correctly assess how much tax should be owed in even moderately complicated situations. Income tax law is way too vague and relies so much o

There is no way to correctly assess how much tax should be owed in even moderately complicated situations. Income tax law is way too vague and relies so much on the intentions behind activities. It's also always playing catch-up to new tech. Enforcement involves substantial interpretations that reasonable people in and out of the IRS can disagree on. This is not an argument for more or less enforcement, but I've found people usually neglect this aspect.

nerdponx 6y ago
Very good point. Our massively over-complicated tax code only advantages wealthy people who intend to cheat or skimp on taxes, and tax prep companies like Intuit -- the latter of whom actively and successfully lobby Congress against tax reform. This should be a bipartisan issue, but neither party seems interested in tackling it. A cynic might argue that this is because both parties are interested in maintaining the status quo, their leadership being full of people who benefit from it (or friends of such people). It also helps ensure that running the country is expensive and inefficient, making progressive policy harder to implement.
- OnACoffeeBreak 6y ago
  This is an anecdote that I have not tried to verify, so take that for what it's worth. A colleague in the early 2000s immigrated from New Zealand to the US. His wife went to get a job at a grocery store, and he told me that he was amazed that the hiring manager could not tell them how much of her pay would go to taxes. The implication being that this sort of thing is easy to figure out in NZ, but impossible in the US because of complexities in the US income tax system.
  - vkou 6y ago
    > His wife went to get a job at a grocery store, and he told me that he was amazed that the hiring manager could not tell them how much of her pay would go to taxes. The implication being that this sort of thing is easy to figure out in NZ, but impossible in the US because of complexities in the US income tax system. That's because the hiring manager doesn't need to understand tax rates to do his job. He plugs the numbers into the black-box HR system, and the system spits out dollars, that he pays employees with. The reason for why you have no idea how much the government will take in taxes, is because income taxes are progressive, and are charged based on total income earned per year. So, someone working at a $200,000/year job for a year, will have a tax rate of ~26.5% (I'm ignoring Social Security). But if they were unemployed for 9 months, and started working that job on October 1st, they will have a tax rate of ~16.5%. What this means is that when you start a job, you have to guess what your likely annual tax rate is going to be, and set up withholding for that amount. If you underpay by a large enough sum, the IRS will send you a bill, with an extra penalty next April. If you overpay, the IRS will send you a tax return.
    - codedokode 6y ago
      Here in Russia we use another system: employees don't have to pay taxes from their wages themselves. It is company's responsibility to calculate and pay it. This system has an advantage, that most people don't have to bother with filling out complicated forms every year, but it has also disadvantages because people don't see how much money they give to the state.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    As vkou said, the hiring manager has no idea what taxes the wife will pay...but the payroll manager does, and could probably tell her exactly what she would pay based on her start date, estimated wages based on expected shifts, and exemptions. Expecting the hiring manager to know the tax stuff would be like expecting the dev team to know how much income tax the business is going to pay.
gamblor956 6y ago
Step 1: did you receive money? That is income. Step 2: if you incurred expenses in making that money, and that money is not a wage/salary paid by a business, deduct those expenses from the income in Step 1. Otherwise, deduct nothing. Step 3: look at the tax table for the amount at the end of Step 2 to see what the tax you owe is. It only gets complicated if you want it to be complicated, such as if you're trying to maximize potential deductions or minimize taxable income by exploiting loopholes or special provisions.
- mod 6y ago
  > It only gets complicated if you want it to be complicated That's not true. I wanted to claim some cash income this past tax year and it was a pain in my ass. It's very relevant how you made the money: for instance, if you made it gambling vs a woodworking hobby vs a small ebay reselling business, all are handled differently.

nerdponx 6y ago

Very good point. Our massively over-complicated tax code only advantages wealthy people who intend to cheat or skimp on taxes, and tax prep companies like Intuit -- the latter of whom actively and successfully lobby Congress against tax reform. This should be a bipartisan issue, but neither party seems interested in tackling it. A cynic might argue that this is because both parties are interested in maintaining the status quo, their leadership being full of people who benefit from it (or friends of such people). It also helps ensure that running the country is expensive and inefficient, making progressive policy harder to implement.

OnACoffeeBreak 6y ago
This is an anecdote that I have not tried to verify, so take that for what it's worth. A colleague in the early 2000s immigrated from New Zealand to the US. His wife went to get a job at a grocery store, and he told me that he was amazed that the hiring manager could not tell them how much of her pay would go to taxes. The implication being that this sort of thing is easy to figure out in NZ, but impossible in the US because of complexities in the US income tax system.
- vkou 6y ago
  > His wife went to get a job at a grocery store, and he told me that he was amazed that the hiring manager could not tell them how much of her pay would go to taxes. The implication being that this sort of thing is easy to figure out in NZ, but impossible in the US because of complexities in the US income tax system. That's because the hiring manager doesn't need to understand tax rates to do his job. He plugs the numbers into the black-box HR system, and the system spits out dollars, that he pays employees with. The reason for why you have no idea how much the government will take in taxes, is because income taxes are progressive, and are charged based on total income earned per year. So, someone working at a $200,000/year job for a year, will have a tax rate of ~26.5% (I'm ignoring Social Security). But if they were unemployed for 9 months, and started working that job on October 1st, they will have a tax rate of ~16.5%. What this means is that when you start a job, you have to guess what your likely annual tax rate is going to be, and set up withholding for that amount. If you underpay by a large enough sum, the IRS will send you a bill, with an extra penalty next April. If you overpay, the IRS will send you a tax return.
  - codedokode 6y ago
    Here in Russia we use another system: employees don't have to pay taxes from their wages themselves. It is company's responsibility to calculate and pay it. This system has an advantage, that most people don't have to bother with filling out complicated forms every year, but it has also disadvantages because people don't see how much money they give to the state.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  As vkou said, the hiring manager has no idea what taxes the wife will pay...but the payroll manager does, and could probably tell her exactly what she would pay based on her start date, estimated wages based on expected shifts, and exemptions. Expecting the hiring manager to know the tax stuff would be like expecting the dev team to know how much income tax the business is going to pay.

gamblor956 6y ago

Step 1: did you receive money? That is income. Step 2: if you incurred expenses in making that money, and that money is not a wage/salary paid by a business, deduct those expenses from the income in Step 1. Otherwise, deduct nothing. Step 3: look at the tax table for the amount at the end of Step 2 to see what the tax you owe is. It only gets complicated if you want it to be complicated, such as if you're trying to maximize potential deductions or minimize taxable income by exploiting loopholes or special provisions.

mod 6y ago
> It only gets complicated if you want it to be complicated That's not true. I wanted to claim some cash income this past tax year and it was a pain in my ass. It's very relevant how you made the money: for instance, if you made it gambling vs a woodworking hobby vs a small ebay reselling business, all are handled differently.