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The mirror test also gives widely different results in humans. Canadian children pass it at 2 years old, while Kenyans fail at 5: https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~hen

The mirror test also gives widely different results in humans. Canadian children pass it at 2 years old, while Kenyans fail at 5: https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/Journal%20of%20Cross-Cultural%20Psychology-2010-Broesch-%20Cultural%20Variations%20in%20Children's%20Mirror%20Self-Recognition.pdf https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/Journal%20of%20Cross... Would you conclude from it that Kenyan children are less (or not at all) "self-aware" than Canadian ones? Or that the leap from "recognize reflection" to "self-awareness" is unjustified?

thatguy0900 6y ago
What a minefield of a question
the8472 6y ago
Skimming the paper, the researchers already propose their own interpretation of possible causes, but one thing I couldn't find is whether they controlled for familiarity with mirrors. A full-height mirror (within reach of small children) might simply be more common in western households. Edit, nevermind, there's a whole paragraph on that towards the end: > It may be important to note the general use of mirrors in each of the cultures. Although we did not include an independent measure of the extent and nature of mirror experience in these cul-tures, the experimenters visited many homes in these various communities. Although mirrors are present in most non-Western and all Western homes, their use varies considerably. It is more conspicuously and frequently used in the West, compared to any of the other cultures considered here. Western children are more likely to have shared mirror exposure with others or to have seen themselves in a mirror in the presence of others, a situation presumably unfamiliar to the non-Western children we tested. The unfamiliarity with public mirror exposure may be linked to the enhanced “freezing” behavior by non-Western children, particularly when discovering that their face is marked. This inhibition may correspond to the fact that children do not know how to behave, one way or another, in this context.
- rbecker 6y ago
  They also cite a different study: In contrast, research with humans suggests that children’s relative familiarity with mirrors, which greatly varies across contexts, does not correlate with the age at which the mark test is passed (Priel & deSchonen, 1986). Priel and deShonen (1986) tested Bedouin nomadic children with no previous mirror experience and compared them to same-age Israeli children familiar with mirrors. They found no significant difference in the developmental onset of MSR between mirror familiar and unfamiliar children.
- rbecker 6y ago
  Thinking about it, the idea that familiarity with mirrors would affect the results really throws into question that what the test measures is "self-awareness". It would imply that self-awareness can be increased by exposure to mirrors...
  - the8472 6y ago
    It is a proxy-measure, not what we're actually trying to measure. So having some factors to control for wouldn't be particularly unexpected. It does not necessarily mean that familiarity with mirrors would cause/improve self-awareness, it could just mean that the test subject would have to learn how to use it or associate the visual stimulus with the concept of self. On the other hand it doesn't exclude the possibility that a mirror can be helpful in learning something related to the self.

thatguy0900 6y ago

What a minefield of a question

the8472 6y ago

Skimming the paper, the researchers already propose their own interpretation of possible causes, but one thing I couldn't find is whether they controlled for familiarity with mirrors. A full-height mirror (within reach of small children) might simply be more common in western households. Edit, nevermind, there's a whole paragraph on that towards the end: > It may be important to note the general use of mirrors in each of the cultures. Although we did not include an independent measure of the extent and nature of mirror experience in these cul-tures, the experimenters visited many homes in these various communities. Although mirrors are present in most non-Western and all Western homes, their use varies considerably. It is more conspicuously and frequently used in the West, compared to any of the other cultures considered here. Western children are more likely to have shared mirror exposure with others or to have seen themselves in a mirror in the presence of others, a situation presumably unfamiliar to the non-Western children we tested. The unfamiliarity with public mirror exposure may be linked to the enhanced “freezing” behavior by non-Western children, particularly when discovering that their face is marked. This inhibition may correspond to the fact that children do not know how to behave, one way or another, in this context.

rbecker 6y ago
They also cite a different study: In contrast, research with humans suggests that children’s relative familiarity with mirrors, which greatly varies across contexts, does not correlate with the age at which the mark test is passed (Priel & deSchonen, 1986). Priel and deShonen (1986) tested Bedouin nomadic children with no previous mirror experience and compared them to same-age Israeli children familiar with mirrors. They found no significant difference in the developmental onset of MSR between mirror familiar and unfamiliar children.
rbecker 6y ago
Thinking about it, the idea that familiarity with mirrors would affect the results really throws into question that what the test measures is "self-awareness". It would imply that self-awareness can be increased by exposure to mirrors...
- the8472 6y ago
  It is a proxy-measure, not what we're actually trying to measure. So having some factors to control for wouldn't be particularly unexpected. It does not necessarily mean that familiarity with mirrors would cause/improve self-awareness, it could just mean that the test subject would have to learn how to use it or associate the visual stimulus with the concept of self. On the other hand it doesn't exclude the possibility that a mirror can be helpful in learning something related to the self.