7 ms·

The EU already grants a lot of money for research and innovation. You have the horizon 2020 and horizon Europe programs for example. It's not perfect of course

The EU already grants a lot of money for research and innovation. You have the horizon 2020 and horizon Europe programs for example. It's not perfect of course but it works. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework_Programmes_for_Research_and_Technological_Development https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework_Programmes_for_Res...

Lionga 6y ago
Show any unicorn financed by the horizon billions the EU wastes on these programs. Never was never will be one. It just does not work
- merightnow 6y ago
  The scope is not to produce "unicorns" but to drive innovation and R&D for all different kinds of projects. Those funds should not act as VC with the only purpose of growth, but it should fund sustainable innovative companies or open source foundations. Lately I've been seeing the EU founded logo on more and more extremely useful open source programs that everyone uses and which had no funding sources because of the lack of "extreme profit" in the horizon and that should be the results that this grants achieve.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - jariel 6y ago
    "it should fund sustainable innovative companies or open source foundations." Show material examples of this. Also, the EU needs 'big companies' that employ a lot of people, pay high salaries, can afford to sustain complicated projects with know-how, to acquire and integrate other projects. A nice batch of 'open source' projects that some people might use will not move the needle.
    - p1necone 6y ago
      "the EU needs 'big companies' that employ a lot of people, pay high salaries, can afford to sustain complicated projects with know-how, to acquire and integrate other projects." Why? Funding open source projects seems just as useful to me.
      - thatguy0900 6y ago
        If you don't the big companies from other nations will take you over and flaunt your laws and regulations seems to be the answer
        ponker 6y ago
        *flout
      - jariel 6y ago
        Open Source is a small issue thing in the context of an entire economy. It's nice to have some support for it, but it doesn't even lend well to that: it's very hard to know which projects to support until after the fact, of course we know that 99% of it is never even used. The kinds of people involved don't do it generally for money, and also have their own ambitions. What happens when you have a 'great piece of open source' that AirBus and Daimler really want to integrate, but the 'maintainer' just doesn't care to make the necessary changes? Or is against it? Or is only working 'now and then ? Or doesn't feel 'large corps should benefit' or whatever? It's a tricky space. Worth supporting, but it would take a very specialized team and frankly, not that much money. Europe needs large industrial organizations because they are the lifeblood of the economy, in fact, the hallmark of advanced civilizations. You want to know the 'difference' between 'rich' and 'poor' Europe? In 'rich Europe' a far grater portion of the population works in corporations with >1K employees. Only at a certain scale can a lot of activities be addressed: you can't make an airliner with all it's supply chain, IP, R&D, systems integration, training, support and the myriad of operational activities with 'open source' or even with 'small shops' or 'vc money'. A lot of know-how is embedded within these groups that given them competitive advantage, and of course, scale is necessary to be competitive at an international level especially in 'winner takes all' type markets. EU investment in open source is nice, but it's a side-show. What EU needs is Googles & Salesforces etc..
- cblconfederate 6y ago
  I am participatingn in such a program now. Can confirm, it looks great on paper (and it's mostly about writing reports etc) but creating useful outputs is optional.
- speedgoose 6y ago
  Unicorns are perhaps not something to wish for.
knuthsat 6y ago
The EU is silly. Most of these grants are picked up by beurocrats that know how to get them and enrich themselves. Best example is that big blue brain project in Switzerland that got billions even when the science was not there. Universities are currently filled with bureaucrats that know how to win grants and produce no results.
- marmaduke 6y ago
  > Best example is that big blue brain project in Switzerland that got billions even when the science was not there. It's the Human Brain Project, and it's 1 billion over 10 years. It is currently in year 7, and at the end, it will provide the AWS of neuroscience in Europe.
  - yholio 6y ago
    Seems like they built a wonderful machine for answering "42": https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/07/ten-years-human-brain-project-simulation-markram-ted-talk/594493/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/07/ten-year... Or will build, if they are granted the additional money they ask for past 2023: “The development of high-quality brain simulators requires a long-term commitment of resources”. We shall call it Deep Thought: the sunk-cost brain.
    - marmaduke 6y ago
      the project is actually in 3 stages, the first 2 dubious, the one which just started in April is worth reconsidering, see my sibling comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24605138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24605138
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    I think it will utterly fail. Some interesting spin-offs may still happen but the whole project is a great exercise in marketing, not so much in science.
    - 6y ago
auggierose 6y ago
Horizon 2020 does not work. It's all gobbled up by professional grant writers, not professional researchers.
- marmaduke 6y ago
  Not all the H2020 projects, at least.
- speedgoose 6y ago
  A professional researcher in Europe is a professional Horizon grant writer.
  - auggierose 6y ago
    A mediocre researcher in Europe is a professional Horizon grant writer. Here, fixed that for you.

Lionga 6y ago

Show any unicorn financed by the horizon billions the EU wastes on these programs. Never was never will be one. It just does not work

merightnow 6y ago
The scope is not to produce "unicorns" but to drive innovation and R&D for all different kinds of projects. Those funds should not act as VC with the only purpose of growth, but it should fund sustainable innovative companies or open source foundations. Lately I've been seeing the EU founded logo on more and more extremely useful open source programs that everyone uses and which had no funding sources because of the lack of "extreme profit" in the horizon and that should be the results that this grants achieve.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jariel 6y ago
  "it should fund sustainable innovative companies or open source foundations." Show material examples of this. Also, the EU needs 'big companies' that employ a lot of people, pay high salaries, can afford to sustain complicated projects with know-how, to acquire and integrate other projects. A nice batch of 'open source' projects that some people might use will not move the needle.
  - p1necone 6y ago
    "the EU needs 'big companies' that employ a lot of people, pay high salaries, can afford to sustain complicated projects with know-how, to acquire and integrate other projects." Why? Funding open source projects seems just as useful to me.
    - thatguy0900 6y ago
      If you don't the big companies from other nations will take you over and flaunt your laws and regulations seems to be the answer
      - ponker 6y ago
        *flout
    - jariel 6y ago
      Open Source is a small issue thing in the context of an entire economy. It's nice to have some support for it, but it doesn't even lend well to that: it's very hard to know which projects to support until after the fact, of course we know that 99% of it is never even used. The kinds of people involved don't do it generally for money, and also have their own ambitions. What happens when you have a 'great piece of open source' that AirBus and Daimler really want to integrate, but the 'maintainer' just doesn't care to make the necessary changes? Or is against it? Or is only working 'now and then ? Or doesn't feel 'large corps should benefit' or whatever? It's a tricky space. Worth supporting, but it would take a very specialized team and frankly, not that much money. Europe needs large industrial organizations because they are the lifeblood of the economy, in fact, the hallmark of advanced civilizations. You want to know the 'difference' between 'rich' and 'poor' Europe? In 'rich Europe' a far grater portion of the population works in corporations with >1K employees. Only at a certain scale can a lot of activities be addressed: you can't make an airliner with all it's supply chain, IP, R&D, systems integration, training, support and the myriad of operational activities with 'open source' or even with 'small shops' or 'vc money'. A lot of know-how is embedded within these groups that given them competitive advantage, and of course, scale is necessary to be competitive at an international level especially in 'winner takes all' type markets. EU investment in open source is nice, but it's a side-show. What EU needs is Googles & Salesforces etc..
cblconfederate 6y ago
I am participatingn in such a program now. Can confirm, it looks great on paper (and it's mostly about writing reports etc) but creating useful outputs is optional.
speedgoose 6y ago
Unicorns are perhaps not something to wish for.

knuthsat 6y ago

The EU is silly. Most of these grants are picked up by beurocrats that know how to get them and enrich themselves. Best example is that big blue brain project in Switzerland that got billions even when the science was not there. Universities are currently filled with bureaucrats that know how to win grants and produce no results.

marmaduke 6y ago
> Best example is that big blue brain project in Switzerland that got billions even when the science was not there. It's the Human Brain Project, and it's 1 billion over 10 years. It is currently in year 7, and at the end, it will provide the AWS of neuroscience in Europe.
- yholio 6y ago
  Seems like they built a wonderful machine for answering "42": https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/07/ten-years-human-brain-project-simulation-markram-ted-talk/594493/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/07/ten-year... Or will build, if they are granted the additional money they ask for past 2023: “The development of high-quality brain simulators requires a long-term commitment of resources”. We shall call it Deep Thought: the sunk-cost brain.
  - marmaduke 6y ago
    the project is actually in 3 stages, the first 2 dubious, the one which just started in April is worth reconsidering, see my sibling comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24605138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24605138
- jacquesm 6y ago
  I think it will utterly fail. Some interesting spin-offs may still happen but the whole project is a great exercise in marketing, not so much in science.
  - 6y ago

auggierose 6y ago

Horizon 2020 does not work. It's all gobbled up by professional grant writers, not professional researchers.

marmaduke 6y ago
Not all the H2020 projects, at least.
speedgoose 6y ago
A professional researcher in Europe is a professional Horizon grant writer.
- auggierose 6y ago
  A mediocre researcher in Europe is a professional Horizon grant writer. Here, fixed that for you.