6 ms·

App developers do this because, gasp, it works. Filtering reviews this way absolutely, quantitatively, repeatedly boosts app ratings, and apps with higher ratin

App developers do this because, gasp, it works. Filtering reviews this way absolutely, quantitatively, repeatedly boosts app ratings, and apps with higher ratings get more downloads. Don’t expect developers to stop doing this just because it annoys you.

ulucs 6y ago
Unless enough people start giving one stars because of such filtering :^)
tomc1985 6y ago
We should not be justifying shitty negative externalities because "they help the developer". We should be destroying existing systems and reforming them so that everyone is happy
- sdkjfnnjjj 6y ago
  What mechanism would you propose?
  - tomc1985 6y ago
    Ratings systems have been gamed to meaninglessness. First stop would probably be removing those. I realize that creates more discovery problems, but I think that can be ameliorated somewhat by making more use of professional reviewers and app-store integrations with publications like Wirecutter or Consumer Reports.
    - sdkjfnnjjj 6y ago
      True that rating systems have been hacked. Maybe it really boils down to only following reviews from people you trust, which could be selected professional reviewers.
      - bonestormii_ 6y ago
        Interestingly, I'm pretty sure apps that drive traffic to other apps are generally not permitted on the app store, per some huge HN thread recently featuring a letter to Tim Cook from the developer of such an app who got removed. I feel like the internet-pro's work around to validating quality of anything, strangely, is to find a reddit thread where people seem to discuss it meaningfully and logically.
        TeMPOraL 6y ago
        Subreddit trick is super useful. Also for avoiding disinformation, which is a problem in any topic that applies to the general population, because these are thoroughly SEO-saturated by content marketing scoundrels. So usually one of the first things I do is search "<topic of interest> site:reddit.com", look for dedicated subreddits, and browse the top posts and the subreddit wiki. More often than not, there's a lot of solid community knowledge collected there. Circling back to the topic of apps and ratings, I pretty much never use the app store for product discovery. If I install an app, it's because I knew about it from elsewhere. May be a professional reviewer, may be a friend, or may be a random poster on HN. Basically, it must be a human who I can be confident isn't trying to deceive me.
      - tomc1985 6y ago
        I think apps could look to how music spreads for inspiration here. There is not a huge importance on "ratings" in music consumption, and some people spend a lot of time listening to playlists or DJ sets by curators. Plus you have apps like Shazam that can identify songs mid-air and mid-play. Translate this to apps? Or, imagine an App Store, but without search, categories, or any kind of discoverability at all. Let the community handle the discoverability aspect.
        sdkjfnnjjj 6y ago
        I think a lot of music consumption is driven by marketing, though? Like radio stations playing the same song over and over again.
    - remram 6y ago
      People rarely go out of their way to put in positive review (or at least neutral reviews, "works as expected"). The current cheats implemented by apps probably affect the ratio of positive reviews per user a lot, making it indicative only of how effective the cheat is, and not the quality of the app. I wonder if you could get away with only negative reviews? Would a "negative review per total install" metric be worse than "positive reviews per review" (e.g. current ratings)?
  - frenchy 6y ago
    Personally, I get around this by only using apps off F-Droid. I'm sure not everyone would be happy with that solution, but it works well for me.
  - megous 6y ago
    Allow apps to disable/remove ratings completely, and prioritize apps with ratings disabled above those with ratings enabled. In-platform ratings and the constant nagging would disappear overnight.
    - jlokier 6y ago
      At least in the current system, if I saw an app with "ratings disabled" I would assume the ratings are terrible and the developer doesn't want me to see that. If in a future system I could see that the app had disabled ratings from its initial release, I would assume the developer anticipated the ratings to be mediocre to poor.
      - megous 6y ago
        I install apps that have no ratings, from a package manager without any centralized rating system whatsoever, all the time. The basic curation by the distro maintainers is enough for me. At most I look at wiki or into the docs if the app may do what I want it to do for me, before giving the app a try. I don't have any pre-judice against apps with no in-app store ratings. If I can find the documentation/source code/review online, and the app seems to do what I need, that's good enough for me.
        jlokier 6y ago
        I also install apps with no ratings in environments where that's the norm. But on the Apple or Google app stores, it's not the norm, and an application that stands out as "this developer has opted to disable ratings" among lots of 4-star and 5-star apps looks different in context, compared with a package in Debian, RedHat or Homebrew. If it becomes commonplace for well-regarded developers to opt out of ratings, that's different, then it might start to look favourable.
- rpeden 6y ago
  I'm not sure that making everyone happy is an achievable goal. I enjoy rating and reviewing apps, and I don't mind when apps ask me to do it. So your proposed solution would make me unhappy vs. the status quo.
mortehu 6y ago
Maybe a platform will ban or penalize this behavior if we complain about it loudly enough. It is or will become a Nash equilibrium that can only be resolved by Apple and Google. Once all apps do this, the app developers are back to where they started, but users are worse off.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  IIRC Apple requires apps to use Apple’s method to ask users to review. And they respect the “don’t bother me” answer.
the__alchemist 6y ago
I'll join in on punishing these techniques, in an effort to make it not work.
ufmace 6y ago
I think he did say - it's one thing to do it once. It gets really annoying when apps do it over and over again.
srtjstjsj 6y ago
I expect app stores to ban apps (or at least ban reviews) that manipulate reviews.
cortesoft 6y ago
Right, and if we can convince more people to give 1 star reviews when apps do this, then maybe it will stop working and developers will stop doing it. Also, we expect people to stop a lot of things that 'work' because people are annoyed. Email SPAM worked well enough for people to keep doing it, so we passed laws to restrict it.

ulucs 6y ago

Unless enough people start giving one stars because of such filtering :^)

tomc1985 6y ago

We should not be justifying shitty negative externalities because "they help the developer". We should be destroying existing systems and reforming them so that everyone is happy

sdkjfnnjjj 6y ago
What mechanism would you propose?
- tomc1985 6y ago
  Ratings systems have been gamed to meaninglessness. First stop would probably be removing those. I realize that creates more discovery problems, but I think that can be ameliorated somewhat by making more use of professional reviewers and app-store integrations with publications like Wirecutter or Consumer Reports.
  - sdkjfnnjjj 6y ago
    True that rating systems have been hacked. Maybe it really boils down to only following reviews from people you trust, which could be selected professional reviewers.
    - bonestormii_ 6y ago
      Interestingly, I'm pretty sure apps that drive traffic to other apps are generally not permitted on the app store, per some huge HN thread recently featuring a letter to Tim Cook from the developer of such an app who got removed. I feel like the internet-pro's work around to validating quality of anything, strangely, is to find a reddit thread where people seem to discuss it meaningfully and logically.
      - TeMPOraL 6y ago
        Subreddit trick is super useful. Also for avoiding disinformation, which is a problem in any topic that applies to the general population, because these are thoroughly SEO-saturated by content marketing scoundrels. So usually one of the first things I do is search "<topic of interest> site:reddit.com", look for dedicated subreddits, and browse the top posts and the subreddit wiki. More often than not, there's a lot of solid community knowledge collected there. Circling back to the topic of apps and ratings, I pretty much never use the app store for product discovery. If I install an app, it's because I knew about it from elsewhere. May be a professional reviewer, may be a friend, or may be a random poster on HN. Basically, it must be a human who I can be confident isn't trying to deceive me.
    - tomc1985 6y ago
      I think apps could look to how music spreads for inspiration here. There is not a huge importance on "ratings" in music consumption, and some people spend a lot of time listening to playlists or DJ sets by curators. Plus you have apps like Shazam that can identify songs mid-air and mid-play. Translate this to apps? Or, imagine an App Store, but without search, categories, or any kind of discoverability at all. Let the community handle the discoverability aspect.
      - sdkjfnnjjj 6y ago
        I think a lot of music consumption is driven by marketing, though? Like radio stations playing the same song over and over again.
  - remram 6y ago
    People rarely go out of their way to put in positive review (or at least neutral reviews, "works as expected"). The current cheats implemented by apps probably affect the ratio of positive reviews per user a lot, making it indicative only of how effective the cheat is, and not the quality of the app. I wonder if you could get away with only negative reviews? Would a "negative review per total install" metric be worse than "positive reviews per review" (e.g. current ratings)?
- frenchy 6y ago
  Personally, I get around this by only using apps off F-Droid. I'm sure not everyone would be happy with that solution, but it works well for me.
- megous 6y ago
  Allow apps to disable/remove ratings completely, and prioritize apps with ratings disabled above those with ratings enabled. In-platform ratings and the constant nagging would disappear overnight.
  - jlokier 6y ago
    At least in the current system, if I saw an app with "ratings disabled" I would assume the ratings are terrible and the developer doesn't want me to see that. If in a future system I could see that the app had disabled ratings from its initial release, I would assume the developer anticipated the ratings to be mediocre to poor.
    - megous 6y ago
      I install apps that have no ratings, from a package manager without any centralized rating system whatsoever, all the time. The basic curation by the distro maintainers is enough for me. At most I look at wiki or into the docs if the app may do what I want it to do for me, before giving the app a try. I don't have any pre-judice against apps with no in-app store ratings. If I can find the documentation/source code/review online, and the app seems to do what I need, that's good enough for me.
      - jlokier 6y ago
        I also install apps with no ratings in environments where that's the norm. But on the Apple or Google app stores, it's not the norm, and an application that stands out as "this developer has opted to disable ratings" among lots of 4-star and 5-star apps looks different in context, compared with a package in Debian, RedHat or Homebrew. If it becomes commonplace for well-regarded developers to opt out of ratings, that's different, then it might start to look favourable.
rpeden 6y ago
I'm not sure that making everyone happy is an achievable goal. I enjoy rating and reviewing apps, and I don't mind when apps ask me to do it. So your proposed solution would make me unhappy vs. the status quo.

mortehu 6y ago

Maybe a platform will ban or penalize this behavior if we complain about it loudly enough. It is or will become a Nash equilibrium that can only be resolved by Apple and Google. Once all apps do this, the app developers are back to where they started, but users are worse off.

colejohnson66 6y ago
IIRC Apple requires apps to use Apple’s method to ask users to review. And they respect the “don’t bother me” answer.

the__alchemist 6y ago

I'll join in on punishing these techniques, in an effort to make it not work.

ufmace 6y ago

I think he did say - it's one thing to do it once. It gets really annoying when apps do it over and over again.

srtjstjsj 6y ago

I expect app stores to ban apps (or at least ban reviews) that manipulate reviews.

cortesoft 6y ago

Right, and if we can convince more people to give 1 star reviews when apps do this, then maybe it will stop working and developers will stop doing it. Also, we expect people to stop a lot of things that 'work' because people are annoyed. Email SPAM worked well enough for people to keep doing it, so we passed laws to restrict it.