3 ms·

> I am not sure I understand this question. I rest my case.

boulos 6y ago
I think it’s fair to say that accessibility is an ambiguous term. Which one did you mean? (My charitable guess was a11y in the screen reader, color blindness, font size, etc. sense)
- raphlinus 6y ago
  You are right, but I couldn't resist the opportunity. Yes, just "accessibility" is a fairly broad term, but I do mean it in the context of assistive technology such as screen readers and navigation by keyboard and devices like directional controllers. I should note, we haven't actually done any of that work in Druid yet (we're struggling with scope as it is), but trying to think ahead. I believe that having a retained tree will help enormously with building this, and that, in the meantime, tab focus navigation is a good proxy for at least some of the problems we expect to face.
  - stephc_int13 6y ago
    It is a bit of work but navigation with keyboard/gamepad is possible with an immediate-mode GUI, as demonstrated by the excellent work of Omar Cornut (Dear Imgui) You have to set a compilation flag to enable the keyboard/gamepad navigation, if you missed it from the source code.
    - akiselev 6y ago
      Basic navigation with keyboard/gamepad is a trivial case compared to screen reader accessibility and navigation. Take a look at the Windows Narrator keyboard shortcuts [1] like "Next Heading" or "Go to next landmark/region" or "Read row header" - these require integration with the system UI framework or the accessibility APIs directly to provide extra semantic information about what's drawn on screen. Even with integration into system accessibility APIs, Narrator (and other screen readers) performs a lot of heuristics to improve the user experience. These heuristics depend on a separate tree data structure [2] and how it changes over time, so in order to implement even the most basic accessibility, IMGUI would have to retain that information instead of throwing it away every frame. Component identity is crucial to how most (all?) screen readers work today and it's a happy accident that it also allows an efficient hybrid retained-immediate mode architecture. I don't know if it has been fixed or not, but a year or two ago you could completely nuke the Windows screen reader just by assigning React components randomly generated keys so that the DOM nodes would be destroyed and recreated every redraw. [1] https://dequeuniversity.com/screenreaders/narrator-keyboard-shortcuts https://dequeuniversity.com/screenreaders/narrator-keyboard-... [2] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/winauto/inspect-objects https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/winauto/inspe...

I think it’s fair to say that accessibility is an ambiguous term. Which one did you mean? (My charitable guess was a11y in the screen reader, color blindness, font size, etc. sense)

raphlinus 6y ago
You are right, but I couldn't resist the opportunity. Yes, just "accessibility" is a fairly broad term, but I do mean it in the context of assistive technology such as screen readers and navigation by keyboard and devices like directional controllers. I should note, we haven't actually done any of that work in Druid yet (we're struggling with scope as it is), but trying to think ahead. I believe that having a retained tree will help enormously with building this, and that, in the meantime, tab focus navigation is a good proxy for at least some of the problems we expect to face.
- stephc_int13 6y ago
  It is a bit of work but navigation with keyboard/gamepad is possible with an immediate-mode GUI, as demonstrated by the excellent work of Omar Cornut (Dear Imgui) You have to set a compilation flag to enable the keyboard/gamepad navigation, if you missed it from the source code.
  - akiselev 6y ago
    Basic navigation with keyboard/gamepad is a trivial case compared to screen reader accessibility and navigation. Take a look at the Windows Narrator keyboard shortcuts [1] like "Next Heading" or "Go to next landmark/region" or "Read row header" - these require integration with the system UI framework or the accessibility APIs directly to provide extra semantic information about what's drawn on screen. Even with integration into system accessibility APIs, Narrator (and other screen readers) performs a lot of heuristics to improve the user experience. These heuristics depend on a separate tree data structure [2] and how it changes over time, so in order to implement even the most basic accessibility, IMGUI would have to retain that information instead of throwing it away every frame. Component identity is crucial to how most (all?) screen readers work today and it's a happy accident that it also allows an efficient hybrid retained-immediate mode architecture. I don't know if it has been fixed or not, but a year or two ago you could completely nuke the Windows screen reader just by assigning React components randomly generated keys so that the DOM nodes would be destroyed and recreated every redraw. [1] https://dequeuniversity.com/screenreaders/narrator-keyboard-shortcuts https://dequeuniversity.com/screenreaders/narrator-keyboard-... [2] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/winauto/inspect-objects https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/winauto/inspe...