7 ms·

Frankly speaking, it'd be a better argument that he was "canceled" if he hadn't gotten funding at all. If this is what "being canceled" means, that your browser

by Frondo 6y ago

Frankly speaking, it'd be a better argument that he was "canceled" if he hadn't gotten funding at all. If this is what "being canceled" means, that your browser (I.e. commodity software in a mature marketplace where everyone gives it away for free) still gets funded then maybe it's not actually a meaningful harm to begin with.

BrendanEich 6y ago
I suggest "no effects at all" and "canceled for life, now dead or on welfare" is a false dichotomy. Obviously I had to rebuild a company and codebase rather than build on Firefox. Mozilla's loss, now.
- no_wizard 6y ago
  Question is now, to be poignant, is to what you learned from the experience and what your regrets are.
  - BrendanEich 6y ago
    I can't comment on anything about Mozilla covered by NDAs. The rest will have to await my memoirs.
  - hitekker 6y ago
    Actually, the question is if you knew that Brendan Eich was harmed before you claimed he wasn't harmed at all. Pretending the victim wasn't harmed and then asking him "what he learned" and "what his regrets are" is pretty malicious.
    - no_wizard 6y ago
      I take issue with this. Reading my question back, it wasn't intended to be malicious (short and to the point is what I was going for). Broken down, its like this: I'm asking what he learned: What was the take away form the situation? Is there something of value from what happened that can be shared that is worthwhile? If it comes across as implied as anything else, then I did a poor job at framing, but the question in the literal is asking nothing more than that. My second question is simply, do you regret the experience? Do you have regrets surrounding the situation? An answer of "I don't regret anything about that situation" is another way to answer the same question. I wasn't setting a trap, I was hoping to use the fact the person in question was actually commenting to get more information about the experience from a different source. I don't think that's unreasonable at all. I'm doing my absolute best to leave my own personal feelings out of it as well, which is why I used the words I did, actually, I felt they were far more along the lines of matter of fact than anything else. Granted, I will concede we lose some of the human element in all this when talking over a text forum, so maybe this isn't obvious to others, however the questions were meant to elicit an honest response, not a defensive one. Edit: I'll go on the record (now seeing I got an answer) I think this narrative about "cancellation culture" is somewhat ridiculous. Its just an outgrowth of everyone being outraged in public forums now (Twitter, Facebook etc). Inevitable and very human, since any form of mass media was widely consumed (Tim Wu wrote a great book about mass media called The Master Switch which covers this very well). I don't think its a "problem" like some people make it out to be. Secondly no, I don't think he was harmed, Brave is a successful product, and having to go outside the valley to raise money isn't "canceling" somebody. You still have a business, you still are CEO of that business, and its a successful business. In fact, I know since all this with Mozilla he's been interviewed in positive lights for Brave specifically. This isn't exactly following the guys career. I know I'll likely take some flak for this, but I also don't disagree with what happened either. Actions have consequences, and the more publicly visible you are the more severe those consequences will be. A CEO that doesn't stand for the companies public values and missions isn't going to be kept on as CEO. In Mozilla's case, social equality is important enough that it affects the boardroom.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        Well, I think the lesson is that the safe thing to do is don't say anything on social media that could ever be perceived as remotely controversial (and given that's hard to predict probably don't do it at all), don't post photos with people because who knows might be controversial some day, and don't do anything like donations that are a matter of public record especially in a political context. Now, most people will be fine with those things up to some point, but if you want to minimize risk you avoid those sorts of activities. And you may give up benefits if you don't do some of those things as well.
      - ALittleLight 6y ago
        Your question, and explanation, read as malicious to me. Here you are explaining to someone that they weren't harmed by being fired because they managed to get another similar job two years later.
        no_wizard 6y ago
        Well, I’d argue founding a company is a little more than just “managed” I don’t mean it as being malicious. Doesn’t mean I don’t have a different point of view on what happened but that is separate from my goal of becoming more informed
        ALittleLight 6y ago
        And Brave is a little less than Mozilla. Regardless, you aren't in a position to tell someone else whether or not they were harmed by being fired. For one, getting fired is a pretty obvious harm. Second, the person involved is saying he considers it a harm.
        lilSebastian 6y ago
        Welcome to cancel culture.
  - monksy 6y ago
    Why should he "learn from a situation", and how can you have regrets? The way I see this: 1. He spent $1000 of his own money on something. It was a legal transaction. (Some people spend that on car stuff, others spend this on computer parts, and others spend this on their addiction to anime). Others, in other countries spend money in ways the US deems "immoral." 2. Other people tried to take what he spent it on and then apply this on his performance and tried to associate that action with "how the work place may be" (Is there evidence that he treated gay married individuals differently?) He did have an affect from this. (All the details aren't clear.. also I don't think they're important for this arguement from this). What is your stance on punishing him for doing #1 and #2?
    - no_wizard 6y ago
      Its all about takeaway, of course something like this might contain some valuable lessons, just like Osbourne Computer provided us with lessons in how not to sell a new product, in effect. I ask about regrets, because people have them, another valid answer would simply be that they do not regret anything about the situation. Sometimes, when answering the first question, they never get around to talking about this part, which can be equally if not more so valuable. I don't know how I could phrased this - and given the comment window, for visibility sake - any other way. They're two questions that I genuinely didn't intend to be "charged". I ask the same exact questions at the end of our sprints! Of course, the human element can be missing a little in a text forum, but I didn't want to accidentally word things in a way that would make someone defensive either, as I couldn't come up with a good way of wording things without introducing my own personal biases and opinions on the matter, which wouldn't have been a way to approach this to get someone to answer objectively (where objective means non defensive and in their own words and thoughts) First really consider the ask, on its face value, and consider you can always answer the question in the negative, if thats how you really feel. Thats what I was going for.
      - crocodiletears 6y ago
        I appreciate your clarification here, and apologize for the shortness of my response: The way your comment was phrased, combined with your dismissiveness of Eich's departure from Mozilla in the comment's predecessor caused myself, and seemingly the preponderance of your respondants to read it in the tone of a kintergarten teacher asking a child if he'd learned his lesson, and to respond as such.
  - crocodiletears 6y ago
    "And what did you learn from this experience?" Probably not to donate to causes you believe in six years before you receive a promotion at the organization you've founded and helped lead for a decade and a half?
- no_wizard 6y ago
  I just want to be clear I hold nothing untoward against you or anything like that. I have my 10000 foot view of corporate politics and such, and we may not well align there, but I don’t want this to be taken as something untoward. I rather appreciate that you read and responded to my comment and I don’t want any thing to come across as untoward
  - lilSebastian 6y ago
    Too late, you've already been cancelled.
- Frondo 6y ago
  So you faced what seems like an ultimately mild consequence for a publicly-held and socially unpopular position. And this is the cancel culture we're all supposed to be worried about, really? What would have been, in your estimation, the appropriate consequence for working to deny marriage rights to gay people in California? Please don't say "nothing," i.e. no consequence.

by Frondo 6y ago

BrendanEich 6y ago

I suggest "no effects at all" and "canceled for life, now dead or on welfare" is a false dichotomy. Obviously I had to rebuild a company and codebase rather than build on Firefox. Mozilla's loss, now.

no_wizard 6y ago
Question is now, to be poignant, is to what you learned from the experience and what your regrets are.
- BrendanEich 6y ago
  I can't comment on anything about Mozilla covered by NDAs. The rest will have to await my memoirs.
- hitekker 6y ago
  Actually, the question is if you knew that Brendan Eich was harmed before you claimed he wasn't harmed at all. Pretending the victim wasn't harmed and then asking him "what he learned" and "what his regrets are" is pretty malicious.
  - no_wizard 6y ago
    I take issue with this. Reading my question back, it wasn't intended to be malicious (short and to the point is what I was going for). Broken down, its like this: I'm asking what he learned: What was the take away form the situation? Is there something of value from what happened that can be shared that is worthwhile? If it comes across as implied as anything else, then I did a poor job at framing, but the question in the literal is asking nothing more than that. My second question is simply, do you regret the experience? Do you have regrets surrounding the situation? An answer of "I don't regret anything about that situation" is another way to answer the same question. I wasn't setting a trap, I was hoping to use the fact the person in question was actually commenting to get more information about the experience from a different source. I don't think that's unreasonable at all. I'm doing my absolute best to leave my own personal feelings out of it as well, which is why I used the words I did, actually, I felt they were far more along the lines of matter of fact than anything else. Granted, I will concede we lose some of the human element in all this when talking over a text forum, so maybe this isn't obvious to others, however the questions were meant to elicit an honest response, not a defensive one. Edit: I'll go on the record (now seeing I got an answer) I think this narrative about "cancellation culture" is somewhat ridiculous. Its just an outgrowth of everyone being outraged in public forums now (Twitter, Facebook etc). Inevitable and very human, since any form of mass media was widely consumed (Tim Wu wrote a great book about mass media called The Master Switch which covers this very well). I don't think its a "problem" like some people make it out to be. Secondly no, I don't think he was harmed, Brave is a successful product, and having to go outside the valley to raise money isn't "canceling" somebody. You still have a business, you still are CEO of that business, and its a successful business. In fact, I know since all this with Mozilla he's been interviewed in positive lights for Brave specifically. This isn't exactly following the guys career. I know I'll likely take some flak for this, but I also don't disagree with what happened either. Actions have consequences, and the more publicly visible you are the more severe those consequences will be. A CEO that doesn't stand for the companies public values and missions isn't going to be kept on as CEO. In Mozilla's case, social equality is important enough that it affects the boardroom.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      Well, I think the lesson is that the safe thing to do is don't say anything on social media that could ever be perceived as remotely controversial (and given that's hard to predict probably don't do it at all), don't post photos with people because who knows might be controversial some day, and don't do anything like donations that are a matter of public record especially in a political context. Now, most people will be fine with those things up to some point, but if you want to minimize risk you avoid those sorts of activities. And you may give up benefits if you don't do some of those things as well.
    - ALittleLight 6y ago
      Your question, and explanation, read as malicious to me. Here you are explaining to someone that they weren't harmed by being fired because they managed to get another similar job two years later.
      - no_wizard 6y ago
        Well, I’d argue founding a company is a little more than just “managed” I don’t mean it as being malicious. Doesn’t mean I don’t have a different point of view on what happened but that is separate from my goal of becoming more informed
        ALittleLight 6y ago
        And Brave is a little less than Mozilla. Regardless, you aren't in a position to tell someone else whether or not they were harmed by being fired. For one, getting fired is a pretty obvious harm. Second, the person involved is saying he considers it a harm.
        lilSebastian 6y ago
        Welcome to cancel culture.
- monksy 6y ago
  Why should he "learn from a situation", and how can you have regrets? The way I see this: 1. He spent $1000 of his own money on something. It was a legal transaction. (Some people spend that on car stuff, others spend this on computer parts, and others spend this on their addiction to anime). Others, in other countries spend money in ways the US deems "immoral." 2. Other people tried to take what he spent it on and then apply this on his performance and tried to associate that action with "how the work place may be" (Is there evidence that he treated gay married individuals differently?) He did have an affect from this. (All the details aren't clear.. also I don't think they're important for this arguement from this). What is your stance on punishing him for doing #1 and #2?
  - no_wizard 6y ago
    Its all about takeaway, of course something like this might contain some valuable lessons, just like Osbourne Computer provided us with lessons in how not to sell a new product, in effect. I ask about regrets, because people have them, another valid answer would simply be that they do not regret anything about the situation. Sometimes, when answering the first question, they never get around to talking about this part, which can be equally if not more so valuable. I don't know how I could phrased this - and given the comment window, for visibility sake - any other way. They're two questions that I genuinely didn't intend to be "charged". I ask the same exact questions at the end of our sprints! Of course, the human element can be missing a little in a text forum, but I didn't want to accidentally word things in a way that would make someone defensive either, as I couldn't come up with a good way of wording things without introducing my own personal biases and opinions on the matter, which wouldn't have been a way to approach this to get someone to answer objectively (where objective means non defensive and in their own words and thoughts) First really consider the ask, on its face value, and consider you can always answer the question in the negative, if thats how you really feel. Thats what I was going for.
    - crocodiletears 6y ago
      I appreciate your clarification here, and apologize for the shortness of my response: The way your comment was phrased, combined with your dismissiveness of Eich's departure from Mozilla in the comment's predecessor caused myself, and seemingly the preponderance of your respondants to read it in the tone of a kintergarten teacher asking a child if he'd learned his lesson, and to respond as such.
- crocodiletears 6y ago
  "And what did you learn from this experience?" Probably not to donate to causes you believe in six years before you receive a promotion at the organization you've founded and helped lead for a decade and a half?
no_wizard 6y ago
I just want to be clear I hold nothing untoward against you or anything like that. I have my 10000 foot view of corporate politics and such, and we may not well align there, but I don’t want this to be taken as something untoward. I rather appreciate that you read and responded to my comment and I don’t want any thing to come across as untoward
- lilSebastian 6y ago
  Too late, you've already been cancelled.
Frondo 6y ago
So you faced what seems like an ultimately mild consequence for a publicly-held and socially unpopular position. And this is the cancel culture we're all supposed to be worried about, really? What would have been, in your estimation, the appropriate consequence for working to deny marriage rights to gay people in California? Please don't say "nothing," i.e. no consequence.