4 ms·

Cool. This is one of the pieces of Libre software that can work really well for showing "Free/Libre software _can_ be a viable tool".

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
I tried to make a presentation using LibreOffice (Impress). I just couldn't. The UI is heavily cluttered yet key features like adjusting the font size of a bullet point weren't easily reachable, and attempting to fix that left the toolbars in a messed up state, with no clear way to "factory reset" only the Impress toolbars. Overall, the UX feels like being stuck in a poorly thrown together version of Office 1995, where everything is technically there, but just somehow a little bit worse. GIMP is another example of this pattern. Examples of actually decent FOSS are Firefox, Thunderbird, Inkscape and Filezilla, although e.g. Thunderbird suffers from a lack of improvements, so it's still stuck in the 2000's when the rest of the world improved.
- Shared404 6y ago
  I'll have to disagree. I just threw this together in about a minute or two [0]. That being said, I am using it on Linux, so it follows my GTK theme. It also is a fairly up to date version, so it's possible the UX changed. [0] http://a-shared-404.com/other-stuff/temp/Test.odp http://a-shared-404.com/other-stuff/temp/Test.odp (Link is going to go dead at some point in the future, but I'll make sure it's up for a week or so at least.)
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
    Of course it's possible to use it. It's not effective though. By "couldn't", I didn't mean "its not possible". I was saying "I couldn't bring myself to use this tool because the experience was so bad". It's the difference between focusing on what to put in my presentation, and having to focus on fighting my tools. For example, it's possible to change the brush size and hardness in GIMP, and you can even configure shortcuts to do it faster... but Photoshop's "Alt+RightMouse" quick-change mode is just an order of magnitude faster and nicer (https://youtu.be/vG5QOzODCBs?t=45 https://youtu.be/vG5QOzODCBs?t=45). It feels like everything in most open source tools takes just a few extra clicks, just a little bit extra attention, just adds a little bit extra pain, that makes the overall experience incredibly frustrating. And when you point this out, you're usually told that you should instead stop doing your work and fix the broken tools yourself.
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      Simple solution: pay for MS office instead. > And when you point this out, you're usually told that you should instead stop doing your work and fix the broken tools yourself. show us an example of you being told to do this.
      - tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
        Unfortunately, I'm running Linux for a long list of reasons, which limits my options (yes, Wine is an option, but I've tried that with Notepad++ and the result is a UX that's almost as bad as using LibreOffice/GIMP straight away. Otherwise I'd have certainly gotten both MS Office and some older version of Photoshop.
        throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        Use virtualbox.
      - ikerdanzel 6y ago
        Yeah. I paid subscription for that even though using linux...vm Windows. The fixed yourself is a common reply when complaining about the free tools.....though to be precise, usually it is polite and phrased as "...contribute to the project...". This is so common, it is very well understood among general public that is tech savvy but not at programmers level, no example need to be shown. A mere quick mention/reference is more than enough.
        throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        > and phrased as "...contribute to the project...". Reasonable enough. You could pay them. I did. > no example need to be shown Nope, show me on LibreOffice's bug reports where they say that. You want stuff for free, but so many won't contribute, won't pay, expect first class service without giving anything in return.
    - Shared404 6y ago
- throwawaybutwhy 6y ago
  LibreOffice's UI is almost deliberately made incompatible with MS Office. The conspiracy theorist in me wants to audit the Foundation's financial statements [0] for payments from Microsoft akin to what Google is doing to Mozilla. [0] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Ledgers https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Ledgers
  - The_Colonel 6y ago
    "MS Office implements the obvious, natural UI so anything deviating from that must be intentionally trying to be different at all costs"
    - throwawaybutwhy 6y ago
      Aye, that's the spirit (at least, pre-ribbon). It's much more important though that compatibility with the leader's de facto standard is crucial for the underdog. Even in text ediors - compare [0] with [1]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24593616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24593616 (Emacs) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24558788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24558788 (VS Code)
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      But their whole proposition is 'it's MS Office but free.' It's even in the name. I bet most people they try to sell to it's replacing MS Office. Having their own, slightly worse, version of the MS Office UI is bad for what they want to achieve. And do they have the time, money, and research chops to be doing their own UI research, even if it was a good idea to be doing it?

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago

I tried to make a presentation using LibreOffice (Impress). I just couldn't. The UI is heavily cluttered yet key features like adjusting the font size of a bullet point weren't easily reachable, and attempting to fix that left the toolbars in a messed up state, with no clear way to "factory reset" only the Impress toolbars. Overall, the UX feels like being stuck in a poorly thrown together version of Office 1995, where everything is technically there, but just somehow a little bit worse. GIMP is another example of this pattern. Examples of actually decent FOSS are Firefox, Thunderbird, Inkscape and Filezilla, although e.g. Thunderbird suffers from a lack of improvements, so it's still stuck in the 2000's when the rest of the world improved.

Shared404 6y ago
I'll have to disagree. I just threw this together in about a minute or two [0]. That being said, I am using it on Linux, so it follows my GTK theme. It also is a fairly up to date version, so it's possible the UX changed. [0] http://a-shared-404.com/other-stuff/temp/Test.odp http://a-shared-404.com/other-stuff/temp/Test.odp (Link is going to go dead at some point in the future, but I'll make sure it's up for a week or so at least.)
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
  Of course it's possible to use it. It's not effective though. By "couldn't", I didn't mean "its not possible". I was saying "I couldn't bring myself to use this tool because the experience was so bad". It's the difference between focusing on what to put in my presentation, and having to focus on fighting my tools. For example, it's possible to change the brush size and hardness in GIMP, and you can even configure shortcuts to do it faster... but Photoshop's "Alt+RightMouse" quick-change mode is just an order of magnitude faster and nicer (https://youtu.be/vG5QOzODCBs?t=45 https://youtu.be/vG5QOzODCBs?t=45). It feels like everything in most open source tools takes just a few extra clicks, just a little bit extra attention, just adds a little bit extra pain, that makes the overall experience incredibly frustrating. And when you point this out, you're usually told that you should instead stop doing your work and fix the broken tools yourself.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    Simple solution: pay for MS office instead. > And when you point this out, you're usually told that you should instead stop doing your work and fix the broken tools yourself. show us an example of you being told to do this.
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
      Unfortunately, I'm running Linux for a long list of reasons, which limits my options (yes, Wine is an option, but I've tried that with Notepad++ and the result is a UX that's almost as bad as using LibreOffice/GIMP straight away. Otherwise I'd have certainly gotten both MS Office and some older version of Photoshop.
      - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        Use virtualbox.
    - ikerdanzel 6y ago
      Yeah. I paid subscription for that even though using linux...vm Windows. The fixed yourself is a common reply when complaining about the free tools.....though to be precise, usually it is polite and phrased as "...contribute to the project...". This is so common, it is very well understood among general public that is tech savvy but not at programmers level, no example need to be shown. A mere quick mention/reference is more than enough.
      - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        > and phrased as "...contribute to the project...". Reasonable enough. You could pay them. I did. > no example need to be shown Nope, show me on LibreOffice's bug reports where they say that. You want stuff for free, but so many won't contribute, won't pay, expect first class service without giving anything in return.
  - Shared404 6y ago
throwawaybutwhy 6y ago
LibreOffice's UI is almost deliberately made incompatible with MS Office. The conspiracy theorist in me wants to audit the Foundation's financial statements [0] for payments from Microsoft akin to what Google is doing to Mozilla. [0] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Ledgers https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Ledgers
- The_Colonel 6y ago
  "MS Office implements the obvious, natural UI so anything deviating from that must be intentionally trying to be different at all costs"
  - throwawaybutwhy 6y ago
    Aye, that's the spirit (at least, pre-ribbon). It's much more important though that compatibility with the leader's de facto standard is crucial for the underdog. Even in text ediors - compare [0] with [1]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24593616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24593616 (Emacs) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24558788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24558788 (VS Code)
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    But their whole proposition is 'it's MS Office but free.' It's even in the name. I bet most people they try to sell to it's replacing MS Office. Having their own, slightly worse, version of the MS Office UI is bad for what they want to achieve. And do they have the time, money, and research chops to be doing their own UI research, even if it was a good idea to be doing it?