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Really? The article's author pet peeve is that all software running on PinePhone start with "no guarantee" or "as is". Tell me, does Apple or Samsung or Microso

Really? The article's author pet peeve is that all software running on PinePhone start with "no guarantee" or "as is". Tell me, does Apple or Samsung or Microsoft take responsibilities for their shitty software? Because so far I've seen thousands of examples their software bricking / penetrated / ransom-ware etc, and not a single one of them was held accountable in court of law because of that. Apple is the most vertical company, heck they give their software for free and even that one doesn't come with guarantees.

Shared404 6y ago
> The article's author pet peeve is that all software running on PinePhone start with "no guarantee" or "as is". Not really. It's not even that it's a pet peeve, just them pointing out that projects need to keep safety in mind. The author even mentions that they have contributed to PinePhone software.
- unnouinceput 6y ago
  Not a single software ever written comes with guarantees. And the way he was phrasing sounded like PinePhone is a hot potato while everybody else is chill, while in reality everybody's the same in that regard.
  - numpad0 6y ago
    Consumer protection laws nevertheless hold manufacturers liable. Small part of why doing hardware is hard.
    - sangnoir 6y ago
      Would that be the manufacturer of the software or of the hardware? I don't think any court would blame manufacturers for incidents caused by user-modifications (installing 3rd-party firmware)
  - Shared404 6y ago
    It doesn't read to me that the author is stating it's a hot potato, I read it as them just saying "hey guys, look out for this."
- 0zymandiass 6y ago
  The issue is they're heavily implying it's something specific to PinePhone. I just scrolled through the legal notices on an iPhone, and they all have the exact same wording. Small components, such as the graphics libraries, the kernel, health data, the web browser, etc... (not to mention they're just plain wrong about the battery/thermal not having hardware-level limits)
  - Shared404 6y ago
    It doesn't read to me that the author is stating it's specific to pinephone, I read it as them just saying "hey guys, look out for this." If they use the license wording to help get it across, well, I don't necessarily agree but as they state in the article: > I'm trying to be a bit inflamatory here, to start the conversation.
    - 0zymandiass 6y ago
      If the conversation is > Software engineering does not put safety first I'm 100% agreed. If the conversation is > The PinePhone has less quality control than Android/iOS It's patently false I would parse the article as the second, as it's referring to a specific phone throughout
      - Shared404 6y ago
        I read it as the first, with a side of "We need to do this or FL/OSS hardware is going to look bad". And I concur about the second being patently false. I would guess that it has more overall tbh.
      - sangnoir 6y ago
        > It's patently false That's a strawman: author never compared to Android/iOS. What they did spell out,is that some of the code they found is unsafe (e.g. commented-out code to prevent false alerts, that was never being reimplemented in a safer way).
      - megous 6y ago
        >> The PinePhone has less quality control than Android/iOS > It's patently false PinePhone is just HW. Android/iOS is SW. Comparison doesn't make sense. Maybe compare PinePhone to Huawei Honor, or Xiaomi and their HW testing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvRTY6sBPeE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvRTY6sBPeE
- linmob 6y ago
  In particular the author maintains a kernel branch that is very advanced. Only a few projects use it though, and I once asked for why that was and was told that many patches in that authors kernel branch were unlikely to ever be mainlined and thus would not fit the approach of the distribution.
  - megous 6y ago
    That's not very precise. :) Many of my patches from my kernel get pulled to "pine64" kernel, including those that are not mainlinable. Distros that care about mainline just use Linus's tree already. There are not many reasons not to use my kernel tree for Pinephone. I actually had reports from users that my multi-distro image that uses my kernel for 13 different pinephone distributions makes some distros run better. I suspect that distro maintainers just think that pine64 community gitlab is somehow more official than any other pinephone kernel developer's tree on the internet, just from the name.
    - linmob 6y ago
      Sorry if I misrepresented things. After giving Purism some money for their "Fund Your App"-thingy today I decided to hit your donation button with a small, but recurring donation, because you deserve it for all your work – even if, sadly, my favourite distribution (DanctNIX Mobile) does not use your kernel and I am too lazy to change that on my end.
scarface74 6y ago
We aren’t talking about malware. We are literally talking about software that can cause your phone to explode. Would you trust Apple to do more safety testing or random open source contributors? The article says that safety measures at the firmware chip level are disabled.
- unnouinceput 6y ago
  No, I would not trust Apple. That was my point, but seems you missed.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    You really think Apple, Google , or any real company would go out of their way to disable safety limits that would cause batteries to explode?
    - swiley 6y ago
      After owning a couple android phones, real hardware manufacturers will do absolutely anything that improves profits.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        That’s why I specified Google. I would also put Samsung in that category (despite their exploding battery episode).
- unishark 6y ago
  > The article says that safety measures at the firmware chip level are disabled. Those are the safety measures protecting the PMIC, not the battery. Is that temperature cutoff even low enough to matter before the battery is on fire? It isn't clear that the software protections ever mattered anyway. If the kernel crashes, or is just charging while turned off, I sure hope it's still designed to be completely safe, and not a sudden explosion risk.
gehsty 6y ago
Doesn’t iPhone have a warning when the phone over heats? And this phone has its cpu temperature monitoring disabled? I guess this is quite a specific example, but it seems you can trust Apple to not let your phone get so hot it melts, and you cannot trust pinephone.
- RealStickman_ 6y ago
  The iphone usually doesn't come with beta (or even alpha) software. An approach like this would not make sense for what the Pinephone aims at.
blihp 6y ago
He's simply pointing out that there needs to be some supporting work on the software side to minimize the risks. He's a pretty prolific hacker who's been around the Pinephone scene pretty much from the start and pointing out some things that were done as quick hacks to get things working in the early days that should be circled back on and fixed. I took his post more as a PSA than anything else.

Shared404 6y ago

> The article's author pet peeve is that all software running on PinePhone start with "no guarantee" or "as is". Not really. It's not even that it's a pet peeve, just them pointing out that projects need to keep safety in mind. The author even mentions that they have contributed to PinePhone software.

unnouinceput 6y ago
Not a single software ever written comes with guarantees. And the way he was phrasing sounded like PinePhone is a hot potato while everybody else is chill, while in reality everybody's the same in that regard.
- numpad0 6y ago
  Consumer protection laws nevertheless hold manufacturers liable. Small part of why doing hardware is hard.
  - sangnoir 6y ago
    Would that be the manufacturer of the software or of the hardware? I don't think any court would blame manufacturers for incidents caused by user-modifications (installing 3rd-party firmware)
- Shared404 6y ago
  It doesn't read to me that the author is stating it's a hot potato, I read it as them just saying "hey guys, look out for this."
0zymandiass 6y ago
The issue is they're heavily implying it's something specific to PinePhone. I just scrolled through the legal notices on an iPhone, and they all have the exact same wording. Small components, such as the graphics libraries, the kernel, health data, the web browser, etc... (not to mention they're just plain wrong about the battery/thermal not having hardware-level limits)
- Shared404 6y ago
  It doesn't read to me that the author is stating it's specific to pinephone, I read it as them just saying "hey guys, look out for this." If they use the license wording to help get it across, well, I don't necessarily agree but as they state in the article: > I'm trying to be a bit inflamatory here, to start the conversation.
  - 0zymandiass 6y ago
    If the conversation is > Software engineering does not put safety first I'm 100% agreed. If the conversation is > The PinePhone has less quality control than Android/iOS It's patently false I would parse the article as the second, as it's referring to a specific phone throughout
    - Shared404 6y ago
      I read it as the first, with a side of "We need to do this or FL/OSS hardware is going to look bad". And I concur about the second being patently false. I would guess that it has more overall tbh.
    - sangnoir 6y ago
      > It's patently false That's a strawman: author never compared to Android/iOS. What they did spell out,is that some of the code they found is unsafe (e.g. commented-out code to prevent false alerts, that was never being reimplemented in a safer way).
    - megous 6y ago
      >> The PinePhone has less quality control than Android/iOS > It's patently false PinePhone is just HW. Android/iOS is SW. Comparison doesn't make sense. Maybe compare PinePhone to Huawei Honor, or Xiaomi and their HW testing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvRTY6sBPeE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvRTY6sBPeE
linmob 6y ago
In particular the author maintains a kernel branch that is very advanced. Only a few projects use it though, and I once asked for why that was and was told that many patches in that authors kernel branch were unlikely to ever be mainlined and thus would not fit the approach of the distribution.
- megous 6y ago
  That's not very precise. :) Many of my patches from my kernel get pulled to "pine64" kernel, including those that are not mainlinable. Distros that care about mainline just use Linus's tree already. There are not many reasons not to use my kernel tree for Pinephone. I actually had reports from users that my multi-distro image that uses my kernel for 13 different pinephone distributions makes some distros run better. I suspect that distro maintainers just think that pine64 community gitlab is somehow more official than any other pinephone kernel developer's tree on the internet, just from the name.
  - linmob 6y ago
    Sorry if I misrepresented things. After giving Purism some money for their "Fund Your App"-thingy today I decided to hit your donation button with a small, but recurring donation, because you deserve it for all your work – even if, sadly, my favourite distribution (DanctNIX Mobile) does not use your kernel and I am too lazy to change that on my end.

scarface74 6y ago

We aren’t talking about malware. We are literally talking about software that can cause your phone to explode. Would you trust Apple to do more safety testing or random open source contributors? The article says that safety measures at the firmware chip level are disabled.

unnouinceput 6y ago
No, I would not trust Apple. That was my point, but seems you missed.
- scarface74 6y ago
  You really think Apple, Google , or any real company would go out of their way to disable safety limits that would cause batteries to explode?
  - swiley 6y ago
    After owning a couple android phones, real hardware manufacturers will do absolutely anything that improves profits.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      That’s why I specified Google. I would also put Samsung in that category (despite their exploding battery episode).
unishark 6y ago
> The article says that safety measures at the firmware chip level are disabled. Those are the safety measures protecting the PMIC, not the battery. Is that temperature cutoff even low enough to matter before the battery is on fire? It isn't clear that the software protections ever mattered anyway. If the kernel crashes, or is just charging while turned off, I sure hope it's still designed to be completely safe, and not a sudden explosion risk.

gehsty 6y ago

Doesn’t iPhone have a warning when the phone over heats? And this phone has its cpu temperature monitoring disabled? I guess this is quite a specific example, but it seems you can trust Apple to not let your phone get so hot it melts, and you cannot trust pinephone.

RealStickman_ 6y ago
The iphone usually doesn't come with beta (or even alpha) software. An approach like this would not make sense for what the Pinephone aims at.

blihp 6y ago

He's simply pointing out that there needs to be some supporting work on the software side to minimize the risks. He's a pretty prolific hacker who's been around the Pinephone scene pretty much from the start and pointing out some things that were done as quick hacks to get things working in the early days that should be circled back on and fixed. I took his post more as a PSA than anything else.