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We really don’t know that to be certain (the fact that math is invented). This is a very longstanding philosophical debate with arguments on both sides. Now, o

We really don’t know that to be certain (the fact that math is invented). This is a very longstanding philosophical debate with arguments on both sides. Now, of course the symbols of math are invented. But math is the study of mathematical _objects_, and it’s very unclear if those are invented or discovered. For example, the Curry-Howard isomorphism shows that math proofs and computer programs are the same mathematical object. Does this mean that they are a part of nature, and we discovered them because we invented a sufficiently powerful mathematical system? Or are they simply properties of the invented system? We do not (and most likely can not) know the answer to that question. If someone is extremely convicted when offering an answer to it, consider me completely suspicious.

foxdev 6y ago
This is something that hit me when I found out how to translate between decimal and binary. If an A on a screen can be a grid of numbers, and those numbers can be reduced to a series of 1s and 0s and stored in a bunch of fancy wires, then who knows what else it could be translated to or from. Look back far enough and the A is a series of photons clashing with orbiting subatomic particles at certain frequencies. We use math based on the status of a sea of transistors to store it in other atoms with forces we're slowly discovering how to communicate about. It's all layers of finding new ways to describe something that was already there, spinning and bumping photons long before any of us had photon detectors in our heads or a chemical machine capable of deciding to call one pattern A and all the ways to translate it into sound waves. One pattern is called "solid state drive," and we seem to have some say in what that pattern does from our frame of reference. Maybe it was always a solid state drive and we're the language the universe uses to describe its smaller parts. I promise I'm not high, and probably not a Boltzmann brain. Though I'm not sure about the latter.
- dfischer 6y ago
  Signal theory is deeply interesting based on your line of thinking here. I’ve been postulating similar things. The universe gives a lot of potential for things to communicate. In the end what is recognized as signal and or information is a matter of imagination and consistency given the plethora of potentially unlimited signals available.
tim333 6y ago
>very unclear if those are invented or discovered It seems fairly clear that the as yet uncalculated digits of pi are there to be discovered rather than waiting for someone to invent them.
- amw-zero 6y ago
  I think you need a refresher on the philosophy of mathematics: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics.
  - dfischer 6y ago
    The education system has utterly failed in its duty in teaching how to use the mind. Instead we see masses are indoctrinated and told what is, and what to remember rather than first principles and tooling to reason. We must do better! Good link for anyone really.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - tim333 6y ago
    Any particular point I should be refreshed on? I mean the uncalculated digits of pi obviously exist in the sense that with a better computer you could discover what they are regardless of what various philosophers may or may not have said.

foxdev 6y ago

This is something that hit me when I found out how to translate between decimal and binary. If an A on a screen can be a grid of numbers, and those numbers can be reduced to a series of 1s and 0s and stored in a bunch of fancy wires, then who knows what else it could be translated to or from. Look back far enough and the A is a series of photons clashing with orbiting subatomic particles at certain frequencies. We use math based on the status of a sea of transistors to store it in other atoms with forces we're slowly discovering how to communicate about. It's all layers of finding new ways to describe something that was already there, spinning and bumping photons long before any of us had photon detectors in our heads or a chemical machine capable of deciding to call one pattern A and all the ways to translate it into sound waves. One pattern is called "solid state drive," and we seem to have some say in what that pattern does from our frame of reference. Maybe it was always a solid state drive and we're the language the universe uses to describe its smaller parts. I promise I'm not high, and probably not a Boltzmann brain. Though I'm not sure about the latter.

dfischer 6y ago
Signal theory is deeply interesting based on your line of thinking here. I’ve been postulating similar things. The universe gives a lot of potential for things to communicate. In the end what is recognized as signal and or information is a matter of imagination and consistency given the plethora of potentially unlimited signals available.

tim333 6y ago

>very unclear if those are invented or discovered It seems fairly clear that the as yet uncalculated digits of pi are there to be discovered rather than waiting for someone to invent them.

amw-zero 6y ago
I think you need a refresher on the philosophy of mathematics: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics.
- dfischer 6y ago
  The education system has utterly failed in its duty in teaching how to use the mind. Instead we see masses are indoctrinated and told what is, and what to remember rather than first principles and tooling to reason. We must do better! Good link for anyone really.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- tim333 6y ago
  Any particular point I should be refreshed on? I mean the uncalculated digits of pi obviously exist in the sense that with a better computer you could discover what they are regardless of what various philosophers may or may not have said.