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That just means math is a set of self consistent rules that you could teach to an alien, not that they are the only set of rules that are self consistent or the

That just means math is a set of self consistent rules that you could teach to an alien, not that they are the only set of rules that are self consistent or the only rules that can be used to model empirical observations of nature.

aliceryhl 6y ago
I consider any set of self-consistent rules to be mathematics, even if aliens invented them.
- dfischer 6y ago
  Self consistent rules doesn’t imply communication. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room Said another way, if you have a dictionary translating, it doesn’t mean the definition is equivalent. In fact, most definitions aren’t, as each one has its nuance. If following a dictionary to arrive at a result after some steps, it doesn’t imply anything other than a set of rules being followed to arrive at an arbitrary value. Also interesting is the perspective of mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_brain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_brain Universe as one mind depending on zoomed out vs zoomed in. However this attribution of mind is simply anything that follows rules. So it’s better to call it “logics” and humans have a property of “bio-logic” abilities. But then what exists outside of logic that allows arbitrary definition of things to represent said logic? The programmer, the consciousness. In general I feel mind exists outside of logic but that’s perhaps a matter of perspective and definition. It gets hard to know where one has defined a conceptual space between continuum and borders and assigning it a range of values.
  - aliceryhl 6y ago
    I don't think communication has anything to do with it. The rules are what they are. Whether I am able to understand them is not really relevant.
    - dfischer 6y ago
      Rules don't exist without consciousness assigning a value. Which is to say that consciousness arbitrarily defines truth from nothing. Rules are not what they are because a rule doesn't have any intrinsic property outside of imagination. It's dependent entirely on consensus and memory. Without communication, consciousness wouldn't be able to distribute rules. It'd be limited to one mind per set of rules. Communication allows imaginary network effects. Distributed protocol message passing, yay!
      - mensetmanusman 6y ago
        The universe doesn’t exist when you die?
        dfischer 6y ago
        The universe may or may not exist when one dies.
kace91 6y ago
You don't need to go to aliens for that. We've already got several sets, since you can pick your axioms and develop from there. That's what the aliens could potentially do as well, but that would also be math.
- temac 6y ago
  That's very true but I also think of one important aspect: the parts of the research space we choose to look in. And like a novel is not discovered in the absurdly large research space of sequences of random characters, nor even discovered in the absurdly large set of sequences of grammatically correct sentences, theorems are made were "we", concrete social creatures, look for them. But there is a distinction in that one activity lies in a formal logic world, the other is more free (neither formal and can even have small inconsistencies) So maybe we just need yet another word? Discovented?
  - dfischer 6y ago
    I look at it like skinning. The universe exists as a geometry. That geometry has properties with different interactions. The geometry exists regardless, but we can give that geometry a name arbitrarily. It’s also the difference between music and math which is equivalent to me as frequency and quantifying frequency. Vibrations interact with each other. Mathematics is the observation and labeling of interaction(s). Tricky because vibrations are continuous and now we’ve got a can of worms on continuous and non continuous numbers. Haha.
- dfischer 6y ago
  What’s math?
dfischer 6y ago
Also to add, just because the rules are followed doesn’t mean the proof was communicated. Any layer of translation can act in between two entities without understanding. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room Weird. Are we just playing games with ourselves? One programmer existing as the programmer of their reality fooling themselves into perspective?

aliceryhl 6y ago

I consider any set of self-consistent rules to be mathematics, even if aliens invented them.

dfischer 6y ago
Self consistent rules doesn’t imply communication. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room Said another way, if you have a dictionary translating, it doesn’t mean the definition is equivalent. In fact, most definitions aren’t, as each one has its nuance. If following a dictionary to arrive at a result after some steps, it doesn’t imply anything other than a set of rules being followed to arrive at an arbitrary value. Also interesting is the perspective of mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_brain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_brain Universe as one mind depending on zoomed out vs zoomed in. However this attribution of mind is simply anything that follows rules. So it’s better to call it “logics” and humans have a property of “bio-logic” abilities. But then what exists outside of logic that allows arbitrary definition of things to represent said logic? The programmer, the consciousness. In general I feel mind exists outside of logic but that’s perhaps a matter of perspective and definition. It gets hard to know where one has defined a conceptual space between continuum and borders and assigning it a range of values.
- aliceryhl 6y ago
  I don't think communication has anything to do with it. The rules are what they are. Whether I am able to understand them is not really relevant.
  - dfischer 6y ago
    Rules don't exist without consciousness assigning a value. Which is to say that consciousness arbitrarily defines truth from nothing. Rules are not what they are because a rule doesn't have any intrinsic property outside of imagination. It's dependent entirely on consensus and memory. Without communication, consciousness wouldn't be able to distribute rules. It'd be limited to one mind per set of rules. Communication allows imaginary network effects. Distributed protocol message passing, yay!
    - mensetmanusman 6y ago
      The universe doesn’t exist when you die?
      - dfischer 6y ago
        The universe may or may not exist when one dies.

kace91 6y ago

You don't need to go to aliens for that. We've already got several sets, since you can pick your axioms and develop from there. That's what the aliens could potentially do as well, but that would also be math.

temac 6y ago
That's very true but I also think of one important aspect: the parts of the research space we choose to look in. And like a novel is not discovered in the absurdly large research space of sequences of random characters, nor even discovered in the absurdly large set of sequences of grammatically correct sentences, theorems are made were "we", concrete social creatures, look for them. But there is a distinction in that one activity lies in a formal logic world, the other is more free (neither formal and can even have small inconsistencies) So maybe we just need yet another word? Discovented?
- dfischer 6y ago
  I look at it like skinning. The universe exists as a geometry. That geometry has properties with different interactions. The geometry exists regardless, but we can give that geometry a name arbitrarily. It’s also the difference between music and math which is equivalent to me as frequency and quantifying frequency. Vibrations interact with each other. Mathematics is the observation and labeling of interaction(s). Tricky because vibrations are continuous and now we’ve got a can of worms on continuous and non continuous numbers. Haha.
dfischer 6y ago
What’s math?

dfischer 6y ago

Also to add, just because the rules are followed doesn’t mean the proof was communicated. Any layer of translation can act in between two entities without understanding. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room Weird. Are we just playing games with ourselves? One programmer existing as the programmer of their reality fooling themselves into perspective?