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The symbols may be invented and the things we have investigated may be different, but the things we prove are true, even to the aliens. Consider modeling the g
by aliceryhl 6y ago
The symbols may be invented and the things we have investigated may be different, but the things we prove are true, even to the aliens.
Consider modeling the game of tic tac toe. You can prove that certain strategies always win. If you then proceed to play it with that strategy against the aliens, then you will certainly win the game, regardless of how their logic looks. (this assumes you're starting of course)
- willis936 6y agoThat just means math is a set of self consistent rules that you could teach to an alien, not that they are the only set of rules that are self consistent or the only rules that can be used to model empirical observations of nature.
- aliceryhl 6y agoI consider any set of self-consistent rules to be mathematics, even if aliens invented them.
- dfischer 6y agoSelf consistent rules doesn’t imply communication. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room Said another way, if you have a dictionary translating, it doesn’t mean the definition is equivalent. In fact, most definitions aren’t, as each one has its nuance. If following a dictionary to arrive at a result after some steps, it doesn’t imply anything other than a set of rules being followed to arrive at an arbitrary value. Also interesting is the perspective of mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_brain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_brain Universe as one mind depending on zoomed out vs zoomed in. However this attribution of mind is simply anything that follows rules. So it’s better to call it “logics” and humans have a property of “bio-logic” abilities. But then what exists outside of logic that allows arbitrary definition of things to represent said logic? The programmer, the consciousness. In general I feel mind exists outside of logic but that’s perhaps a matter of perspective and definition. It gets hard to know where one has defined a conceptual space between continuum and borders and assigning it a range of values.
- aliceryhl 6y agoI don't think communication has anything to do with it. The rules are what they are. Whether I am able to understand them is not really relevant.
- dfischer 6y agoRules don't exist without consciousness assigning a value. Which is to say that consciousness arbitrarily defines truth from nothing. Rules are not what they are because a rule doesn't have any intrinsic property outside of imagination. It's dependent entirely on consensus and memory. Without communication, consciousness wouldn't be able to distribute rules. It'd be limited to one mind per set of rules. Communication allows imaginary network effects. Distributed protocol message passing, yay!
- mensetmanusman 6y agoThe universe doesn’t exist when you die?
- dfischer 6y agoThe universe may or may not exist when one dies.
- kace91 6y agoYou don't need to go to aliens for that. We've already got several sets, since you can pick your axioms and develop from there. That's what the aliens could potentially do as well, but that would also be math.
- temac 6y agoThat's very true but I also think of one important aspect: the parts of the research space we choose to look in. And like a novel is not discovered in the absurdly large research space of sequences of random characters, nor even discovered in the absurdly large set of sequences of grammatically correct sentences, theorems are made were "we", concrete social creatures, look for them. But there is a distinction in that one activity lies in a formal logic world, the other is more free (neither formal and can even have small inconsistencies) So maybe we just need yet another word? Discovented?
- dfischer 6y agoI look at it like skinning. The universe exists as a geometry. That geometry has properties with different interactions. The geometry exists regardless, but we can give that geometry a name arbitrarily. It’s also the difference between music and math which is equivalent to me as frequency and quantifying frequency. Vibrations interact with each other. Mathematics is the observation and labeling of interaction(s). Tricky because vibrations are continuous and now we’ve got a can of worms on continuous and non continuous numbers. Haha.
- dfischer 6y agoWhat’s math?
- dfischer 6y agoAlso to add, just because the rules are followed doesn’t mean the proof was communicated. Any layer of translation can act in between two entities without understanding. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room Weird. Are we just playing games with ourselves? One programmer existing as the programmer of their reality fooling themselves into perspective?
- agumonkey 6y agobut I believe anything is true if embedded in a metamodel making it so. I mean aliens might think in hyperwave cofields from the get go and to them our atoms might looks totally absurd.
- dfischer 6y agoConsciousness makes anything true. Consciousness is the only thing that assigns truth. No thing is true without consciousness.
- iop 6y agoUnless the alien finds an inconsistency in our mathematics right? Which reminds me of the short story by Ted Chiang, Division by Zero: https://fantasticmetropolis.com/i/division https://fantasticmetropolis.com/i/division "I can’t maintain the concept of distinct quantities in my mind anymore; they all feel the same to me"
- thethirdone 6y ago> Consider modeling the game of tic tac toe. You can prove that certain strategies always win Tic tac toe doesn't have a forced win though ...
- willis936 6y agoDoes it have a forced lose? It might be more fun to play tic tac toe but the win condition is flipped.
- thethirdone 6y agoI don't think it does, but I am not sure. Given how easy it is to draw normal tic tac toe, it definitely seems more interesting to flip the win condition.
- Someone 6y agoNo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tic-tac-toe_variants#Misere_Tic-tac-toe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tic-tac-toe_variants#Misere_Ti...: “A 3×3 game is a draw. More generally, the first player can draw or win on any board (of any dimension) whose side length is odd, by playing first in the central cell and then mirroring the opponent's moves.”
- aliceryhl 6y agoOops. Luckily the argument still holds. You can prevent the aliens from winning with certainty.
- dfischer 6y agoAnything we prove requires an axiom which is consent which is imaginary willful agreement. That just means proof is no different to an arbitrary set of rules defined acting like a compiler/interpreter for a programming language. So just Infinite monkey patched classes of definitions... fun.